X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao11.cox.net ([68.230.241.28] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 985707 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:13:48 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.28; envelope-from=ALVentures@cox.net Received: from BigAl ([68.7.14.39]) by fed1rmmtao11.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with ESMTP id <20060215071128.VQBV6244.fed1rmmtao11.cox.net@BigAl> for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:11:28 -0500 From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Engine failures, Rotary or otherwise Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 23:13:09 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c631ff$468f8470$6400a8c0@BigAl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C631BC.386C4470" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C631BC.386C4470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill; =20 With all due respect; I don't disagree with what you're saying here, but = I do take offense at you calling Tracy, myself, and others "idiots" = because we have chosen to run without an air filter. My intake is in front of the = prop and above the wing strake. Anyway, why climb on that issue? There has = not been a single aircraft incident that I am aware of that has resulted = from not using an air filter. Let's pick an issue which has caused a = failure. =20 I won't argue that running without a filter may reduce the engine life; = and I may consider one later. And yes, the engine would eventually fail; = every engine will - filter or no filter - if you run it long enough. =20 Al (I guess it's past my bedtime) =20 =20 =20 =20 Rusty, and Group, I understand your comments Rusty, and think you are both right and = wrong. I believe it is easier, for most people, to be successful with a standard aircraft engine. I DO NOT believe this is because the Lyc, Conti, or whatever is inherently more reliable. I do believe that the ancillaries = are better developed for "conventional" aircraft engines.=20 Because we [FlyRotary or ACRE] are rotary enthusiasts we hear about = EVERY rotary problem. If we heard about every Lyc problem caused on a daily = basis we might never fly spam again! I am not trying to offer so anecdote to soothe the rotary faithful, as all failures are just that, failures. I = would remind everyone that ALL Lyc installs in certified aircraft now come = with AIR FILTERS!=20 I'LL SAY THIS FLAT OUT, IF YOU DON'T RUN A FILTER YOU WILL HAVE A = FAILURE! I don't care if your running a conventional aircraft engine or conversion. Running unfiltered is simple idiocy.=20 It should also be said that for Lycoming to be having crankshaft = failures, and a significant number of them to initiate an AD is not only sad but smacks of reckless disregard. So saying that the aircooled aircraft = engine is super reliable is simply setting yourself up for a fall. If you look = at the statistics most of the engine failures are "certified" engines = simply because there are more of them!=20 ANY ENGINE properly maintained and not operated outside it's normal = limits will work just fine thank you, provided it is not a deficient design to begin with. The rotary requires a GOOD water and oil cooling system. If = you aren't willing to work on that, stop now and don't hurt the reputation = of the rest of us and go buy a Lycoming. The rewards for a GOOD = installation are many but won't "just happen." As Tracy said you must go in with the knowledge of the needed systems or you will fail. If you do slipshod = work, Rotary or Lycoming, YOU WILL FAIL. Someone put the old saying on the = site, "How do you eat an elephant?" "One bite at a time!" This is the proper = way of looking at the jobs needed to be successful. You MUST do all the = jobs. (eat every bite) And most importantly you must do all the jobs well. = Safety wire everything even though it's a pain in the ass. If you can't do all = the jobs yourself it's no crime. Get HELP! Buy the redrive from Tracy. Or = buy from Mistral, or buy them from Marcotte. Build your system up and test = it on the ground. If you overheat your system on the ground don't assume it = will be better in the air! (It might be, but also might not be!) Plan for an adequate sized radiator. That would be a MINIMUM of 2 cubic inches pre = HP, and that only if you have PERFECT ducting. (3 c.i. per HP would be a = safer bet) Don't expect you are the miracle guy that can change physics for = your own project. Rusty has brought up some good points in pointing out that = if you want to fly soonest buy conventional. Bernie, you can probably = rebuild your system from all new parts for less than the cost of two Lyc = cylinders. As an older guy facing family pressures I can understand how you might = not want to though. This is no crime. Your needs are your own, though I = would prefer to see you go back to the rotary and succeed. We all need to go = in with our eyes open. When setting up race cars and motorcycles I would = look at every part from the stand point what will happen if this part breaks? = If the result would be a crash I would redesign the part until I was SURE = it wouldn't break. If you don't think a part is adequate DON'T USE IT! Your responsibility is to find a part that IS good enough. Don't just hope = that everything will be OK. Work it out. Run your system enough to be sure of = it in the air. I hope everyone takes this in the spirit intended which is = to have us all come home safe. Bill Jepson ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C631BC.386C4470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill;

 

With all due respect; I don’t disagree with what you’re saying = here, but I do take offense at you calling Tracy, myself, and others = “idiots” because we have chosen to run without an air filter.  My intake is = in front of the prop and above the wing strake.  Anyway, why climb on = that issue?  There has not been a single aircraft incident that I am = aware of that has resulted from not using an air filter.  Let’s pick = an issue which has caused a failure.

 

I won’t argue that running without a filter may reduce the engine = life; and I may consider one later.  And yes, the engine would eventually = fail; every engine will – filter or no filter - if you run it long = enough.

 

Al (I guess it’s past my bedtime)

 

 

 

 

Rusty, and Group,

 I understand your comments Rusty, and think you are both right and wrong. = I believe it is easier, for most people, to be successful with a standard aircraft engine. I DO NOT believe this is because the Lyc, Conti, or = whatever is inherently more reliable. I do believe that the ancillaries are = better developed for "conventional" aircraft engines. =

Because we [FlyRotary or ACRE] are rotary enthusiasts we hear about EVERY rotary = problem. If we heard about every Lyc problem caused on a daily basis we might never fly = spam again! I am not trying to offer so anecdote to soothe the rotary = faithful, as all failures are just that, failures. I would remind everyone that ALL Lyc = installs in certified aircraft now come with AIR FILTERS!

I'LL SAY THIS FLAT OUT, IF YOU DON'T RUN A FILTER YOU WILL HAVE A FAILURE! I = don't care if your running a conventional aircraft engine or conversion. = Running unfiltered is simple idiocy.

It should also be said that for Lycoming to be having crankshaft failures, = and a significant number of them to initiate an AD is not only sad but = smacks of reckless disregard. So saying that the aircooled aircraft engine is = super reliable is simply setting yourself up for a fall. If you look at the statistics most of the engine failures are "certified" engines = simply because there are more of them!

ANY ENGINE properly maintained and not operated outside it's normal limits = will work just fine thank you, provided it is not a deficient design to begin = with. The rotary requires a GOOD water and oil cooling system. If you aren't = willing to work on that, stop now and don't hurt the reputation of the rest of = us and go buy a Lycoming. The rewards for a GOOD installation are many but = won't "just happen." As Tracy said you must go in with the knowledge of the needed = systems or you will fail. If you do slipshod work, Rotary or Lycoming, YOU WILL = FAIL. Someone put the old saying on the site, "How do you eat an elephant?" "One bite at a time!" This is the proper way of looking at the = jobs needed to be successful. You MUST do all the jobs. (eat every bite) And = most importantly you must do all the jobs well. Safety wire everything even = though it's a pain in the ass. If you can't do all the jobs yourself it's no = crime. Get HELP!  Buy the redrive from Tracy. Or buy from Mistral, or buy them from Marcotte. Build = your system up and test it on the ground. If you overheat your system on the = ground don't assume it will be better in the air! (It might be, but also might = not be!) Plan for an adequate sized radiator. That would be a MINIMUM of 2 = cubic inches pre HP, and that only if you have PERFECT ducting. (3 c.i. per HP = would be a safer bet) Don't expect you are the miracle guy that can change = physics for your own project.  Rusty has brought up some good points in = pointing out that if you want to fly soonest buy conventional. Bernie, you can = probably rebuild your system from all new parts for less than the cost of two Lyc cylinders. As an older guy facing family pressures I can understand how = you might not want to though. This is no crime. Your needs are your own, = though I would prefer to see you go back to the rotary and succeed. We all need = to go in with our eyes open. When setting up race cars and motorcycles I would = look at every part from the stand point what will happen if this part breaks? If = the result would be a crash I would redesign the part until I was SURE it = wouldn't break. If you don't think a part is adequate DON'T USE IT! Your = responsibility is to find a part that IS good enough. Don't just hope that everything = will be OK. Work it out. Run your system enough to be sure of it in the air. I hope everyone takes this in the spirit intended which = is to have us all come home safe.

Bill Jepson

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