X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [65.54.250.90] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.8) with ESMTP id 984404 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:05:37 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.250.90; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:04:52 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 4.171.150.25 by BAY115-DAV18.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:04:51 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.171.150.25] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Another rotary failure Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:04:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008A_01C6314E.1759A980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0011.1703 Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:04:49 -0500 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Feb 2006 15:04:52.0107 (UTC) FILETIME=[01B455B0:01C63178] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C6314E.1759A980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageThanks Chuck, We don't have a large aviation user base so every = bit of hard data we can get is invaluable.=20 Virtually all of the feedback on RA seals I get (the car guys came up = with this name, not me) is from the racing community. Could not have = continued improvement of the design without it. They were (and are) the = Beta testers. FWIW, there has not been a single case of broken RWS apex seals in NA = engine use and most of them are used in racing applications. There has = been one case of a broken apex seal in a turbo charged engine but both = pieces stayed in groove and resulted in no rotor housing damage. This = was a drag racing engine run at 40 PSI boost and 9500 rpm. The engine = detonated severely due to ECU setup and all corner seals and 7 side = seals were shattered. Rotors faces were dented in from over pressure, = not debris. Although there was no FOD damage to the rotor housings I = would suspect that they were deformed in some way from this event. = Everything has failure modes but we think breakage has been virtually = eliminated from RWS apex seals. Tracy (shamelessly plugging RA seals) =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chuck Dunlap =20 Mazda's new 2mm seal design is 2 piece (introduced in 2004 I think), = the 3 piece is obsolete. It is quite possible that Chuck got his prior = to the new Mazda design so he could have the aftermarket parts. RWS = does not furnish seals to Mazdatrix so guess they would have to be = Hurley or Atkins (same material AFIK). =20 Hi Tracy, Hopefully Chuck can clear this up for us, as well as providing many = more answers once he gets into the engine. I would probably be more = suspicious of the "aftermarket" seals than the stock ones, mostly = because we don't know where they came from, or should I say we know = where they didn't come from :-) =20 Does Chuck run the oil injection pump, or pre-mix? Losing oil flow = to one rotor would eventually lead to loss of compression, though I = don't think it would happen that suddenly. =20 In trying to think of recent problems, the only one I can recall = that didn't have a very clear cause was Ed's tailwind to Shady Bend = issue. I recall there was a theory of ingesting something, but it was = never proven. Other than that, Paul's accident wasn't absolutely = proven, but I don't think anyone blames the engine itself. Any others? = Again, the lack of unexplainable "engine" failures is good news, but = that fact is hidden under a bunch of "engine installation" failures = (ahem, like mine). =20 Rusty (RV-8 QB delivery finally being arranged)=20 I could not find the paper receipt from Mazdatrix, but I found it in = my old saved email from 2003 - Thank goodness for computers! The apex = seals I used were Mazdatrix part number 112N326 which is listed as an = aftermarket steel seal. I premix the oil, I use cheap Wal-Mart 2 stroke oil in gallon size. = The oil mix was likely on the lean side when the failure occurred, = because someone filled up my fuel tanks the night before without asking. = I always add oil during fueling to insure proper mixing. In this case, I = had to add the oil after it was full, so the oil was probably rich at = the outboard side and lean at the inboard side. My return line goes back = to the tank right at the inboard side so does not help mix the oil much. = I don't really think any of this had anything to do with the failure = though. Chuck (still a rotorhead) ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C6314E.1759A980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Thanks Chuck, We don't have a large aviation user base so every bit = of hard=20 data we can get is invaluable. 
 
 Virtually all of the feedback on RA seals I get (the car guys = came up=20 with this name, not me) is from the racing community.  Could not = have=20 continued improvement of the design without it.  They were (and = are) the=20 Beta testers.
 
FWIW, there has not been a single case of broken RWS apex seals in = NA=20 engine use and most of them are used in racing applications.  There = has=20 been one case of a broken apex seal in a turbo charged engine but both = pieces=20 stayed in groove and resulted in no rotor housing damage.  This = was a=20 drag racing engine run at 40 PSI boost and 9500 rpm.  The = engine=20 detonated severely due to ECU setup and all corner seals and 7 = side=20 seals were shattered.  Rotors faces were dented in from over = pressure,=20 not debris.  Although there was no FOD damage to the rotor = housings I=20 would suspect that they were deformed in some way from this event.  =  Everything has failure modes but we think breakage has been = virtually=20 eliminated from RWS apex seals.
 
Tracy (shamelessly plugging RA seals) 
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Dunlap  
Mazda's new 2mm seal design is 2 piece (introduced in 2004 I = think),=20 the 3 piece is obsolete.   It is quite possible that Chuck = got his=20 prior to the new Mazda design so he could have the aftermarket=20 parts.   RWS does not furnish seals to Mazdatrix = so=20 guess they would have to be Hurley or Atkins  (same material=20 AFIK).   
 
Hi=20 Tracy,
 
Hopefully Chuck can clear this up for us, as well as = providing many=20 more answers once he gets into the engine.  I would probably be = more=20 suspicious of the "aftermarket" seals than the stock ones, = mostly=20 because we don't know where they came from, or should I say we know = where=20 they didn't come from :-)   
 
Does Chuck run the oil injection pump, or pre-mix? =20 Losing oil flow to one rotor would eventually lead to loss = of=20 compression, though I don't think it would happen that = suddenly. =20  
 
In=20 trying to think of recent problems,  the only one I can recall that didn't have = a very clear=20 cause was Ed's tailwind to Shady Bend issue.  I recall there = was a=20 theory of ingesting something, but it was never proven.  Other = than=20 that, Paul's accident wasn't absolutely proven, but I don't think = anyone=20 blames the engine itself.  Any others?  =
 
Again, the lack of unexplainable "engine" failures = is good news,=20 but that fact is hidden under a bunch of "engine = installation"=20 failures (ahem, like mine).  
 
Rusty (RV-8 QB delivery finally being arranged) 
 
I could not find the paper receipt from Mazdatrix, but I = found it in=20 my old saved email from 2003 - Thank goodness for=20 computers! The apex=20 seals I used were Mazdatrix part number 112N326 which is listed as = an=20 aftermarket steel seal.
I premix the oil, I use cheap Wal-Mart 2 = stroke oil=20 in gallon size. The oil mix was likely on the lean side when the = failure=20 occurred, because someone filled up my fuel tanks the night before = without=20 asking. I always add oil during fueling to insure proper mixing. In = this=20 case, I had to add the oil after it was full, so the oil was = probably rich=20 at the outboard side and lean at the inboard side. My return line = goes back=20 to the tank right at the inboard side so does not help mix the oil = much. I=20 don't really think any of this had anything to do with the failure=20 though.
 
Chuck (still a=20 = rotorhead)
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