X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.103] (HELO ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0c4) with ESMTP id 764907 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:20:15 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.103; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-025-165.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.25.165]) by ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j9EIJR1v023710 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001c01c5d0eb$d1a5c080$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: injector size Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:19:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C5D0CA.4A4F0130" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C5D0CA.4A4F0130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bulent Aliev" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 1:49 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: injector size >=20 > On Oct 14, 2005, at 12:38 PM, Ed Anderson wrote: >=20 >> Well,Buly, I don't have an EM2. >> >> However, I found out early-on that the EC2 had a "sneak-circuit" =20 >> that permitted power from the injector harness to leak power the =20 >> CPUs. In other words, I expected that when I turned the power to =20 >> the Ec2 CPU (I forget the pins at the moment) OFF I expected the =20 >> unit to be off. So much to my surprise, on my first run with the =20 >> EC2 I killed the power ( I thought) by turning off the EC2 CPU =20 >> power switch, but, the engine just kept right on running. So I =20 >> have to turn off my injectors to kill the engine. >=20 > Ed, I have the wiring schematic in front of me, and there is no power = > switch for the EC2. Mine is wired directly to a CB . So the master =20 > bat. switch (I have two separate) powers the EC2. I have to kill both = > masters to shut everything on the plane. > You are correct, Buly, Tracy's wiring diagram does not call for a = switch, however, I installed a switch probably in the line where you = have the circuit breaker for EC2 pins 33 & 34 (Controller power) >> Tracy explained that he thought most folks would kill the engine =20 >> (and all power) by turning off the Master switch - which works just =20 >> fine. Except, I don't want a knee bumping the master switch to =20 >> kill my engine at an inopportune time {:>), so I had a separate =20 >> toggle (away from the knee) to turn on power to the EC2 (which of =20 >> course did not work as I intended). >=20 > For me, I have to turn off both masters, both pumps or both injectors = > for engine to stop. I had both injectors wired (as per schematic) to =20 > one CB. > But than started thinking that if the CB trips, will shut all =20 > injectors. So I split them to two CB. I wander if this may have =20 > something to do with the problem? >=20 > Buly I think you were wise to split your injectors power like that, I did not = do that and in hind sight wish I had for the reason you cited. However, I don't see how adding a circuit breaker would do that. Now, = if you are leaving even 1 of the CB ON then the EC2 is receiving power = even if the EC2 CB is pulled. As long as either the primary or = secondary injector has power on the line (either of your injector CB is = pushed in) then the EC2 will get this voltage. Tracy used to have an = LED on the program button of the EC2 and it would light up when the EC2 = controller had power - that is another way I found out about the sneak = circuit. If I turned on an injector toggle the EC2 program button LED = would come on even though its power switch/CB was off. So do you get the 6.5volts when both injector CB are pulled? Ed =20 >> >> So, I don't know - but I suspect there may be a similar thing =20 >> ("sneak circuit') happening with the EM2 in that the EC2 is =20 >> providing some voltage with the primaries on. However, only Tracy =20 >> can answer for certain. >> >> Ed >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bulent Aliev" =20 >> >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 12:07 PM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: injector size >> >> >> >>> Hi Ed, >>> I discovered last night that there is a mystery related to my = primary >>> injector switch: with only the master on, I turn the primary = injector >>> switch on, and the EM display comes on with 6.5V "low voltage" >>> reading. I have to find out how the injector cirquit can feed power >>> to the EM? >>> Any ideas? >>> Buly >>> On Oct 11, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Ed Anderson wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Buly, Something you might try is setting the staging manifold >>>> pressure point at a higher manifold pressure. That way your 550c >>>> primary should be the only ones on at low and even medium rpms and >>>> since the Ec2 appears to work fine with 550s out of the box, this >>>> might help. Since you have already gone the mode 3 route, this is >>>> the only thing I can think of. >>>> >>>> I believe the problem is that upon initial start, the EC2 sees >>>> ambient pressure in the manifold (30"Hg) and thinks the engine is >>>> wide open throttle, it checks the fuel map for the amount of fuel >>>> to inject for MAP =3D 30"Hg and injects fuel (a lot!) accordingly. >>>> Normally, this is not a problem as the engine immediately starts >>>> and sucks the manifold pressure down to the nominal 12-14" Hg (for >>>> idle) and the fuel injected is adjust accordingly AND the secondary >>>> are turned off (until the manifold pressure again rises to the >>>> staging point), but with your big injectors having all four dump >>>> fuel before the engine is started and running is probably >>>> contributing to the problem. >>>> >>>> Do you have switches on your injectors and have you tried starting >>>> with the secondary injectors turned off?? >>>> >>>> I presume you don't have the cold start turned on (accidentally or >>>> otherwise -shorted). >>>> >>>> I presume you have programmed a lean mixture for start up region . >>>> >>>> Ed A >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bulent Aliev" >>>> >>>> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 4:15 PM >>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] injector size >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Guys, >>>>> For the last few months I have been struggling with engine >>>>> flooding on start up. Looking at the EC2 manual, it tells me >>>>> that it comes pre-set for "standard" Mazda injectors. I checked >>>>> the injector charts and most of the Mazdas have 460 or 550 CC >>>>> injectors for primary and secondary. My engine (Cosmo 13B) comes >>>>> with 550 cc primary and 850 cc secondary. >>>>> >>>>> I did some Mode3 adjustment on the EC-2 and looks like it's a bit >>>>> better, but the trailing plugs get wet if it does not start right >>>>> away? >>>>> Any Ideas? >>>>> Buly >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Bulent Aliev >>> www.enginegearonline.com >>> Email: bulent@enginegearonline.com >>> Ph. 954 557-1019 >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> = ----------------------------------------------------------------------=20 >> ---------- >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> = ----------------------------------------------------------------------=20 >> ---------- >> >> >> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ >> >=20 > Bulent Aliev > www.enginegearonline.com > Email: bulent@enginegearonline.com > Ph. 954 557-1019 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/ > ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C5D0CA.4A4F0130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bulent Aliev" <atlasyts@bellsouth.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 1:49 = PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: injector = size

>
> On Oct 14, 2005, at 12:38 PM, Ed = Anderson=20 wrote:
>
>> Well,Buly, I don't have an=20 EM2.
>>
>> However, I found out early-on that the EC2 = had a=20 "sneak-circuit" 
>> that permitted power from the = injector=20 harness to leak power the 
>> CPUs.  In other words, = I=20 expected that when I turned the power to 
>> the Ec2 CPU = (I=20 forget the pins at the moment) OFF I expected the 
>> = unit to be=20 off.  So much to my surprise, on my first run with the  =
>>=20 EC2   I killed the power ( I thought) by turning off the EC2 = CPU =20
>> power switch, but, the engine just kept right on = running.  So=20 I 
>> have to turn off my injectors to kill the = engine.
>=20
> Ed, I have the wiring schematic in front of me, and there is no = power 
> switch for the EC2. Mine is wired directly to a CB = . So the=20 master  
> bat. switch (I have two separate) powers the = EC2. I=20 have to kill both 
> masters to shut everything on the=20 plane.

> You are correct, = Buly,=20 Tracy's wiring diagram does not call for a switch, however, I installed = a switch=20 probably in the line where you have the circuit breaker for EC2 pins 33 = & 34=20 (Controller power)

>> Tracy explained that he thought most folks would kill = the=20 engine 
>> (and all power) by turning off the Master = switch -=20 which works just 
>> fine.  Except, I don't want a = knee=20 bumping the master switch to 
>> kill my engine at an = inopportune=20 time {:>), so I had a separate 
>> toggle (away from = the knee)=20 to turn on power to the EC2 (which of 
>> course did not = work as=20 I intended).
>
> For me, I have to turn off both masters, = both=20 pumps or both injectors 
> for engine to stop. I had both = injectors=20 wired (as per schematic) to 
> one CB.
> But than = started=20 thinking that if the CB trips, will shut all 
> injectors. = So I=20 split them to two CB. I wander if this may have 
> something = to do=20 with the problem?
>
> Buly
I think = you were=20 wise to split your injectors power like that, I did not do that and in = hind=20 sight wish I had for the reason you cited.
However, I don't see how adding a circuit = breaker would=20 do that.  Now, if you are leaving even 1 of the CB ON then the EC2 = is=20 receiving power even if the EC2 CB is pulled.  As long as = either=20 the primary or secondary injector has power on the line (either of your = injector=20 CB is pushed in) then the EC2 will get this voltage.   Tracy = used to=20 have an LED on the program button of the EC2 and it would light up when = the EC2=20 controller had power - that is another way I found out about the sneak=20 circuit.  If I turned on an injector toggle the EC2 program button = LED=20 would come on even though its power switch/CB was off.
 
So do you get the 6.5volts when both injector = CB are=20 pulled?
 
Ed
 
 
>>
>> So, I don't know - but I suspect = there may=20 be a similar thing 
>> ("sneak circuit') happening with = the EM2=20 in that the EC2 is 
>> providing some voltage with the = primaries=20 on.  However, only Tracy 
>> can answer for=20 certain.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> ----- = Original=20 Message ----- From: "Bulent Aliev" 
>> <atlasyts@bellsouth.net>
>>=20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
>> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 12:07 = PM
>>=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: injector=20 size
>>
>>
>>
>>> Hi = Ed,
>>>=20 I discovered last night that there is a mystery related to my=20 primary
>>> injector switch: with only the master on, I turn = the=20 primary injector
>>> switch on, and the EM display comes on = with=20 6.5V "low voltage"
>>> reading. I have to find out how the = injector=20 cirquit can feed power
>>> to the EM?
>>> Any=20 ideas?
>>> Buly
>>> On Oct 11, 2005, at 4:47 PM, = Ed=20 Anderson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> = Buly, =20 Something you might try is setting the staging = manifold
>>>>=20 pressure point at a higher manifold pressure.  That way your=20 550c
>>>> primary should be the only ones on at low and = even=20 medium rpms and
>>>> since the Ec2 appears to work fine = with 550s=20 out of the box, this
>>>> might help. Since you have = already gone=20 the mode 3 route, this is
>>>> the only thing I can think = of.
>>>>
>>>> I believe the problem is = that upon=20 initial start,  the EC2 sees
>>>> ambient pressure = in the=20 manifold (30"Hg) and thinks the engine is
>>>> wide open=20 throttle, it checks the fuel map for the amount of = fuel
>>>> to=20 inject for MAP =3D 30"Hg and  injects fuel (a lot!)=20 accordingly.
>>>> Normally, this is not a problem as the = engine=20 immediately starts
>>>> and  sucks the manifold = pressure=20 down to the nominal 12-14" Hg (for
>>>> idle) and the = fuel=20 injected is adjust accordingly AND the secondary
>>>> are = turned=20 off (until the manifold pressure again rises to the
>>>> = staging=20 point), but with your big injectors having all four = dump
>>>>=20 fuel before the engine is started and running is = probably
>>>>=20 contributing to the problem.
>>>>
>>>> Do = you have=20 switches on your injectors and have you tried = starting
>>>> with=20 the secondary injectors turned = off??
>>>>
>>>> I=20 presume you don't have the cold start turned on (accidentally=20 or
>>>> otherwise=20 -shorted).
>>>>
>>>> I presume you have = programmed=20 a lean mixture for start up region = .
>>>>
>>>> Ed=20 A
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>= >>=20 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bulent Aliev"
>>>>=20 <atlasyts@bellsouth.net>
>>>> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft"=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 = 4:15=20 PM
>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] injector=20 size
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>&= gt;>>
>>>>>=20 Hi Guys,
>>>>> For the last few months I have been = struggling=20 with engine
>>>>> flooding  on start up.  = Looking at=20 the EC2 manual, it tells me
>>>>> that it comes  = pre-set=20 for "standard" Mazda injectors. I checked
>>>>> the = injector=20 charts  and most of the Mazdas have 460 or 550 = CC
>>>>>=20 injectors for primary and  secondary. My engine (Cosmo 13B)=20 comes
>>>>> with 550 cc primary and 850 cc =20 secondary.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did some = Mode3=20 adjustment on the EC-2 and looks like it's a bit
>>>>> = better,=20 but the trailing plugs get wet if it does not start=20 right
>>>>> away?
>>>>> Any=20 Ideas?
>>>>>=20 Buly
>>>>>
>>>>> = --
>>>>>=20 Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>>>> Archive and UnSub:   = http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>= >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>=20 --
>>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>>> Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>= >>=20 Bulent Aliev
>>> www.enginegearonline.com
>>>=20 Email: bulent@enginegearonline.com
>>> Ph. 954=20 557-1019
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
&= gt;>
>>=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------=20
>>=20 ----------
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>= ;>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>= =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------=20
>> = ----------
>>
>>
>>
>>>=20 --
>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>>=20 Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>= =20 --
>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>=20 Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/>>
>
> Bulent Aliev
> www.enginegearonline.com
> Email:=20 bulent@enginegearonline.com
> Ph.=20 954 557-1019
>
>

>
>
>

> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive=20 and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/> ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C5D0CA.4A4F0130--