X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.4.51.74] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0c4) with ESMTP id 762691 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:37:46 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.4.51.74; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 05:36:59 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 4.174.5.100 by BAY107-DAV2.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:36:59 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.174.5.100] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Help!! Installing Tracy's apex seals Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:36:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0095_01C5CF08.19796000" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0011.1703 Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:36:54 -0400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2005 12:36:59.0737 (UTC) FILETIME=[A3B95C90:01C5CF29] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0095_01C5CF08.19796000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Been a long time since I looked at the video but I thought it indicated = corner piece toward flywheel. It should DEFINITELY be done this way = when using used rotor housings in order to match up wear patterns. = Follow Leon's excellent instructions on super glue use. Tracy ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Leonard=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 12:29 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Help!! Installing Tracy's apex seals Leon, thanks so much. That post is a keeper. =20 Dave Leonard =20 On 10/13/05, Leon Promet = > wrote:=20 Yair G'Day Dave, END PIECES The easy way is to glue the end pieces on with superglue. All late = model Madza seals are supplied pre-glued. Trouble is, if you have to = dissassemb;le the engine, they need to be re-glued. I've been doing = this for 25 years now. All you need is just a TINY drop. Lay a piece = of "Gladwrap" down on a FLAT surface, lightly oil your fingers and wipe = gently with a rag (so the superglue doesn't stick to them), and make = sure the mating surfaces of the apex end piece and the apex seal itself = is clinically clean (I use carby-clean, but nail polish remover, MEK, = or acetone does the job equally as well). I normally give them a light = scuff with some 800 wet&dry as well.=20 Put a SMALL drop of the superglue on the end of the apex seal, lay = it down on the "Gladwrap", and then lay the end piece down and push = together. Make sure that the sides are in the one plane (otherwise, you = won't get the endpiece past the corner seal). Voila! C'est magnifique!=20 You then avoid this silly business of putting the end pieces in = first (almost guaranteed to cause a problem as you can't see what you = are doing). Trim off any overflow of the superglue, and then fit the = seal trouble free. (As long as you made the superglue bond correctly! = Otherwise they become "devil" pieces - where the devil did that go! REAL = "fun" at 2:30 am on a Sunday morning when you have to be at = scrutineering at 7:30 am - NOT!!!).=20 One other trick is to make sure that the end piece is SLIGHTLY up = the diagonal. The "pointy" end of the end piece needs to be SLIGHTLY = proud of the top of the apex seal. As the motor is torqued, the end = plate will push the end piece down the diagonal and will break the = superglue bond - you can distinctly hear the clicks as the superglue = lets go. (If you don't get it right, you will have compression problems = until the superglue bond breaks with the heat. (Go figure how I know!! = (}:>)=20 SIDE SEAL FAIURE As for your compression problems, I reckon that you had a side seal = SPRING collapse. They tend to wear on the bends. They don't have to = wear much to seriuously compromise their strength. Get one of the old = ones and try bending it. Most probably it will bend easily, and = probably break. Once the spring fails, the side seal itself is not = properly supported, and will in the fullness of time, do what yours = did - break! =20 SEAL DURABILITY As for the durability of the side seals themselves, I've over the = past 30 odd years, I've re-used second hand ones over & over in cheap = rebuilds several times, as long as they come up to thickness and depth = and length specs. But I ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS replace the corner seal = and side seal SPRINGS - EVERY rebuild, as well as ALWAYS fitting NEW = corner seals. 90% of comprtession problems in rotaries comes from the = corner seal clearances. If the new seal is a little too tight, you = can usually make it fit by linishing off the top edges a little with = some Wet&Dry (320 is about the right grade). On second hand rotors, = the corner seal hole ends up slightly oval, so a slightly bigger seal = will fit if you reduce down the ends where the apex seal goes.=20 The corner seal should NOT fall out when you turn the rotor over. If = it does, it's too loose!!! They should be a nice sliding fit with just = enough resistance to NOT fall out when upside down. If you measure each = corner seal diameter, you will find a variation. Careful selection and = fit will ensure perfect compression. Buy an extra packet of them to make = sure you get the sizes right. =20 They are cheap, good insurance, and it is just common sense that = the side seal springs, being so fine, (especially the REW ones) are = pretty delicate little things. BTW, always use the latest corner seal = springs too. The twisted sheet ones (out of the REW and Renesis = engines), not the wire ones. They are much more resistant to heat = stress.=20 Enjoy, Leon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Leonard=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 6:16 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Help!! Installing Tracy's apex seals =20 In Bruce's video he talks about putting the corner piece of the = apex seal toward the front of the engine. But with Tracy's seals the = corner piece is not attached. So I cannot get the apex seal spring to = slide in because the corner piece (now down at the bottom of the slot) = has slid back a little.=20 If I put the corner piece toward the rear of the engine, I am able = to get everything in place just fine. Is there any problem with putting the corner pieces in last = (toward the rear of the engine)? --=20 Dave Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY = http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html = --=20 Dave Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html = = http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0095_01C5CF08.19796000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Been a long time since I looked at the video but I thought it = indicated=20 corner piece toward flywheel.  It should DEFINITELY be done this = way when=20 using used rotor housings in order to match up wear patterns.  = Follow=20 Leon's excellent instructions on super glue use.
 
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, = 2005 12:29=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Help!! = Installing Tracy's apex seals

Leon, thanks so much.  That post is a keeper. 
 
Dave Leonard

 
On 10/13/05, Leon=20 Promet <leonp@pacific.net.au> = wrote:=20
Yair G'Day Dave,
 
END PIECES
 
The easy way is to glue the end = pieces on with=20 superglue.  All late model Madza seals are supplied pre-glued. = Trouble=20 is,  if you have to dissassemb;le the engine,  they need = to be=20 re-glued.  I've been doing this for 25 years now.  All you = need is=20 just a TINY drop.  Lay a = piece of=20 "Gladwrap" down on a FLAT surface,  lightly oil your = fingers and=20 wipe gently with a rag (so the superglue doesn't stick to = them),  and=20 make sure the mating surfaces of the apex end piece and the apex = seal itself=20 is clinically clean (I use carby-clean,  but nail polish = remover, =20 MEK,  or acetone does the job equally as well).  I = normally give=20 them a light scuff with some 800 wet&dry as well.
 
Put a SMALL drop of the superglue = on the end of=20 the apex seal,  lay it down on the "Gladwrap",  and then = lay the=20 end piece down and push together. Make sure that the sides are = in the=20 one plane (otherwise,  you won't get the endpiece past the = corner=20 seal). Voila!  C'est magnifique!
 
You then avoid this silly = business of=20 putting the end pieces in first (almost guaranteed to cause a = problem as you=20 can't see what you are doing).  Trim off any overflow of the=20 superglue,  and then fit the seal trouble free. (As long = as you=20 made the superglue bond correctly! Otherwise they become "devil" = pieces -=20 where the devil did that go! REAL "fun" at 2:30 am on a Sunday = morning when=20 you have to be at scrutineering at 7:30 am - NOT!!!).
 
One other trick is to make sure = that the end=20 piece is SLIGHTLY up the diagonal.  The "pointy" end of the end = piece=20 needs to be SLIGHTLY proud of the top of the apex seal.  = As the=20 motor is torqued,  the end plate will push the end piece down = the=20 diagonal and will break the superglue bond - you can distinctly = hear=20 the clicks as the superglue lets go. (If you don't get it = right, =20 you will have compression problems until the superglue bond breaks = with the=20 heat. (Go figure how I know!! (}:>)
 
SIDE SEAL FAIURE
 
As for your compression = problems,  I=20 reckon that you had a side seal SPRING collapse.  They tend to = wear on=20 the bends.  They don't have to wear much to seriuously = compromise their=20 strength.  Get one of the old ones and try bending it.  = Most=20 probably it will bend easily,  and probably break.  Once = the=20 spring fails,  the side seal itself is not properly = supported, =20 and will in the fullness of time,  do what yours did - = break! =20
 
SEAL DURABILITY
 
As for the durability of the side = seals=20 themselves,  I've over the past 30 odd years, I've re-used = second hand=20 ones over & over in cheap rebuilds several times,  as long = as they=20 come up to thickness and depth and length specs.  But I ALWAYS, = ALWAYS,=20 ALWAYS  replace the corner seal and side seal SPRINGS = - EVERY=20 rebuild, as well as ALWAYS fitting NEW corner seals.  90% of=20 comprtession problems in rotaries comes from the corner seal=20 clearances.   If the new seal is a little too tight,  = you can=20 usually make it fit by linishing off the top edges a little with = some=20 Wet&Dry (320 is about the right grade).  On second hand=20 rotors,  the corner seal hole ends up slightly oval,  so a = slightly bigger seal will fit if you reduce down the ends where the = apex=20 seal goes.
 
The corner seal should NOT fall out = when you=20 turn the rotor over. If it does,  it's too loose!!!  They = should=20 be a nice sliding fit with just enough resistance to NOT fall out = when=20 upside down.  If you measure each corner seal diameter,  = you will=20 find a variation.  Careful selection and fit will ensure = perfect=20 compression. Buy an extra packet of them to make sure you = get the sizes=20 right. 
 
They are cheap,  good = insurance,  and=20 it is just common sense that the side seal springs,  being so=20 fine, (especially the REW ones) are pretty delicate little = things.  BTW,  always use the latest corner seal springs=20 too.  The twisted sheet ones (out of the REW and Renesis=20 engines),  not the wire ones.  They are much more = resistant to=20 heat stress.
 
Enjoy,
 
Leon
----- Original Message ----- =
From: = David = Leonard
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, October = 12, 2005=20 6:16 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Help!! = Installing Tracy's apex seals

 
In Bruce's video he talks about putting the corner piece of = the apex=20 seal toward the front of the engine.  But with Tracy's seals = the=20 corner piece is not attached. So I cannot get the apex seal spring = to=20 slide in because the corner piece (now down at the bottom of the = slot) has=20 slid back a little.
 
If I put the corner piece toward the rear of the engine, I am = able to=20 get everything in place just fine.
 
Is there any problem with putting the corner = pieces in=20 last (toward the rear of the engine)?

--
Dave Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html<= BR>http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html=20



--=20
Dave Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://memb= ers.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html=20
http://members= aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html=20
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