X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from zproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.162.207] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0c4) with ESMTP id 762514 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 00:29:51 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.233.162.207; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id p8so27456nzb for ; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:29:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=giIxLoCFh3aUkNfxzLEn4timFJKmn1oEB0B2Ya0TCX2vjpp4opkrjN1LWfI+/ZYaZ4oFdkbBaQh/uZw1b6xHMY77OYusGhj9bYpEHtAnd/08SHI0PdZZIvf6shHAEa6TFMBAI66ewrUznR0iZsm3sOtc69tm4HTQgKq/dJ3sOx0= Received: by 10.36.74.2 with SMTP id w2mr279359nza; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.222.6 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1c23473f0510112129y78c53572h4f493b3fc33eee5c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:29:06 -0700 From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Help!! Installing Tracy's apex seals In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_15250_13691911.1129091346870" References: ------=_Part_15250_13691911.1129091346870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Leon, thanks so much. That post is a keeper. Dave Leonard On 10/13/05, Leon Promet wrote: > > Yair G'Day Dave, > END PIECES > The easy way is to glue the end pieces on with superglue. All late model > Madza seals are supplied pre-glued. Trouble is, if you have to dissassemb= ;le > the engine, they need to be re-glued. I've been doing this for 25 years n= ow. > All you need is just a TINY drop. Lay a piece of "Gladwrap" down on a FLA= T > surface, lightly oil your fingers and wipe gently with a rag (so the > superglue doesn't stick to them), and make sure the mating surfaces of th= e > apex end piece and the apex seal itself is clinically clean (I use > carby-clean, but nail polish remover, MEK, or acetone does the job equall= y > as well). I normally give them a light scuff with some 800 wet&dry as wel= l. > Put a SMALL drop of the superglue on the end of the apex seal, lay it > down on the "Gladwrap", and then lay the end piece down and push together= . > Make sure that the sides are in the one plane (otherwise, you won't get t= he > endpiece past the corner seal). Voila! C'est magnifique! > You then avoid this silly business of putting the end pieces in first > (almost guaranteed to cause a problem as you can't see what you are doing= ). > Trim off any overflow of the superglue, and then fit the seal trouble fre= e. > (As long as you made the superglue bond correctly! Otherwise they become > "devil" pieces - where the devil did that go! REAL "fun" at 2:30 am on a > Sunday morning when you have to be at scrutineering at 7:30 am - NOT!!!). > One other trick is to make sure that the end piece is SLIGHTLY up the > diagonal. The "pointy" end of the end piece needs to be SLIGHTLY proud of > the top of the apex seal. As the motor is torqued, the end plate will pus= h > the end piece down the diagonal and will break the superglue bond - you c= an > distinctly hear the clicks as the superglue lets go. (If you don't get it > right, you will have compression problems until the superglue bond breaks > with the heat. (Go figure how I know!! (}:>) > SIDE SEAL FAIURE > As for your compression problems, I reckon that you had a side seal > SPRING collapse. They tend to wear on the bends. They don't have to wear > much to seriuously compromise their strength. Get one of the old ones and > try bending it. Most probably it will bend easily, and probably break. On= ce > the spring fails, the side seal itself is not properly supported, and wil= l > in the fullness of time, do what yours did - break! > SEAL DURABILITY > As for the durability of the side seals themselves, I've over the past 3= 0 > odd years, I've re-used second hand ones over & over in cheap rebuilds > several times, as long as they come up to thickness and depth and length > specs. But I ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS replace the corner seal and side seal > SPRINGS - EVERY rebuild, as well as ALWAYS fitting NEW corner seals. 90% = of > comprtession problems in rotaries comes from the corner seal clearances. = If > the new seal is a little too tight, you can usually make it fit by linish= ing > off the top edges a little with some Wet&Dry (320 is about the right grad= e). > On second hand rotors, the corner seal hole ends up slightly oval, so a > slightly bigger seal will fit if you reduce down the ends where the apex > seal goes. > The corner seal should NOT fall out when you turn the rotor over. If it > does, it's too loose!!! They should be a nice sliding fit with just enoug= h > resistance to NOT fall out when upside down. If you measure each corner s= eal > diameter, you will find a variation. Careful selection and fit will ensur= e > perfect compression. Buy an extra packet of them to make sure you get the > sizes right. > They are cheap, good insurance, and it is just common sense that the sid= e > seal springs, being so fine, (especially the REW ones) are pretty delicat= e > little things. BTW, always use the latest corner seal springs too. The > twisted sheet ones (out of the REW and Renesis engines), not the wire one= s. > They are much more resistant to heat stress. > Enjoy, > Leon > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* David Leonard > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 12, 2005 6:16 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Help!! Installing Tracy's apex seals > > In Bruce's video he talks about putting the corner piece of the apex sea= l > toward the front of the engine. But with Tracy's seals the corner piece i= s > not attached. So I cannot get the apex seal spring to slide in because th= e > corner piece (now down at the bottom of the slot) has slid back a little. > If I put the corner piece toward the rear of the engine, I am able to ge= t > everything in place just fine. > Is there any problem with putting the corner pieces in last (toward the > rear of the engine)? > > -- > Dave Leonard > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html > http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html > > -- Dave Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html ------=_Part_15250_13691911.1129091346870 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Leon, thanks so much.  That post is a keeper. 
 
Dave Leonard

 
On 10/13/05, Leon Promet <leonp@pacific.= net.au> wrote:
Yair G'Day Dave,
 
END PIECES
 
The easy way is to glue the end pieces= on with superglue.  All late model Madza seals are supplied pre-glued= . Trouble is,  if you have to dissassemb;le the engine,  they nee= d to be re-glued.  I've been doing this for 25 years now.  All yo= u need is just a TINY=20 drop.  Lay a piece of "Gla= dwrap" down on a FLAT surface,  lightly oil your fingers and= wipe gently with a rag (so the superglue doesn't stick to them),  and= make sure the mating surfaces of the apex end piece and the apex seal itse= lf is clinically clean (I use carby-clean,  but nail polish remover,&n= bsp; MEK,  or acetone does the job equally as well).  I normally = give them a light scuff with some 800 wet&dry as well.
 
Put a SMALL drop of the superglue on t= he end of the apex seal,  lay it down on the "Gladwrap",&nbs= p; and then lay the end piece down and push together. Make sure that t= he sides are in the one plane (otherwise,  you won't get the endpiece = past the corner seal). Voila!  C'est magnifique!
 
You then avoid this silly busines= s of putting the end pieces in first (almost guaranteed to cause a problem = as you can't see what you are doing).  Trim off any overflow of the su= perglue,  and then fit the seal trouble free. (As long as you mad= e the superglue bond correctly! Otherwise they become "devil" pie= ces - where the devil did that go! REAL "fun" at 2:30 am on a Sun= day morning when you have to be at scrutineering at 7:30 am - NOT!!!).
 
One other trick is to make sure that t= he end piece is SLIGHTLY up the diagonal.  The "pointy" end = of the end piece needs to be SLIGHTLY proud of the top of the apex sea= l.  As the motor is torqued,  the end plate will push the end pie= ce down the diagonal and will break the superglue bond - you can disti= nctly hear the clicks as the superglue lets go. (If you don't get it r= ight,  you will have compression problems until the superglue bond bre= aks with the heat. (Go figure how I know!! (}:>)
 
SIDE SEAL FAIURE
 
As for your compression problems, = ; I reckon that you had a side seal SPRING collapse.  They tend to wea= r on the bends.  They don't have to wear much to seriuously compromise= their strength.  Get one of the old ones and try bending it.  Mo= st probably it will bend easily,  and probably break.  Once the s= pring fails,  the side seal itself is not properly supported,  an= d will in the fullness of time,  do what yours did - break! =20
 
SEAL DURABILITY
 
As for the durability of the side seal= s themselves,  I've over the past 30 odd years, I've re-used second ha= nd ones over & over in cheap rebuilds several times,  as long as t= hey come up to thickness and depth and length specs.  But I ALWAYS, AL= WAYS, ALWAYS  replace the corner seal and side seal SPRINGS - EVE= RY rebuild, as well as ALWAYS fitting NEW corner seals.  90% of comprt= ession problems in rotaries comes from the corner seal clearances. &nb= sp; If the new seal is a little too tight,  you can usually make it fi= t by linishing off the top edges a little with some Wet&Dry (320 is abo= ut the right grade).  On second hand rotors,  the corner seal hol= e ends up slightly oval,  so a slightly bigger seal will fit if you re= duce down the ends where the apex seal goes.
 
The corner seal should NOT fall out wh= en you turn the rotor over. If it does,  it's too loose!!!  They = should be a nice sliding fit with just enough resistance to NOT fall out wh= en upside down.  If you measure each corner seal diameter,  you w= ill find a variation.  Careful selection and fit will ensure perfect c= ompression. Buy an extra packet of them to make sure you get the sizes= right. 
 
They are cheap,  good insurance,&= nbsp; and it is just common sense that the side seal springs,  being s= o fine, (especially the REW ones) are pretty delicate little thin= gs.  BTW,  always use the latest corner seal springs too.  T= he twisted sheet ones (out of the REW and Renesis engines),  not the w= ire ones.  They are much more resistant to heat stress.
 
Enjoy,
 
Leon
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 6:= 16 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Help!! Installi= ng Tracy's apex seals

 
In Bruce's video he talks about putting the corner piece of the apex s= eal toward the front of the engine.  But with Tracy's seals the corner= piece is not attached. So I cannot get the apex seal spring to slide in be= cause the corner piece (now down at the bottom of the slot) has slid back a= little.=20
 
If I put the corner piece toward the rear of the engine, I am able to = get everything in place just fine.
 
Is there any problem with putting the corner pieces = in last (toward the rear of the engine)?

--
Dave Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a= /vp4skydoc/index.html


--
Dave Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotary= roster/index.html
http:= //members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html=20 ------=_Part_15250_13691911.1129091346870--