X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mailout1.pacific.net.au ([61.8.0.84] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0c4) with ESMTP id 762340 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:15:58 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=61.8.0.84; envelope-from=leonp@pacific.net.au Received: from mailproxy1.pacific.net.au (mailproxy1.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.86]) by mailout1.pacific.net.au (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-3) with ESMTP id j9C1FDQb014013 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 11:15:13 +1000 Received: from ar1 (ppp2CAB.dyn.pacific.net.au [61.8.44.171]) by mailproxy1.pacific.net.au (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-3) with SMTP id j9C1F7fT023762 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 11:15:08 +1000 Message-ID: <004201c5d05c$bacca6b0$ab2c083d@ar1> From: "Leon Promet" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Help!! Installing Tracy's apex seals Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:15:12 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003F_01C5D0B0.8B99A150" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C5D0B0.8B99A150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yair G'Day Dave, END PIECES The easy way is to glue the end pieces on with superglue. All late = model Madza seals are supplied pre-glued. Trouble is, if you have to = dissassemb;le the engine, they need to be re-glued. I've been doing = this for 25 years now. All you need is just a TINY drop. Lay a piece = of "Gladwrap" down on a FLAT surface, lightly oil your fingers and wipe = gently with a rag (so the superglue doesn't stick to them), and make = sure the mating surfaces of the apex end piece and the apex seal itself = is clinically clean (I use carby-clean, but nail polish remover, MEK, = or acetone does the job equally as well). I normally give them a light = scuff with some 800 wet&dry as well. Put a SMALL drop of the superglue on the end of the apex seal, lay it = down on the "Gladwrap", and then lay the end piece down and push = together. Make sure that the sides are in the one plane (otherwise, you = won't get the endpiece past the corner seal). Voila! C'est magnifique! You then avoid this silly business of putting the end pieces in first = (almost guaranteed to cause a problem as you can't see what you are = doing). Trim off any overflow of the superglue, and then fit the seal = trouble free. (As long as you made the superglue bond correctly! = Otherwise they become "devil" pieces - where the devil did that go! REAL = "fun" at 2:30 am on a Sunday morning when you have to be at = scrutineering at 7:30 am - NOT!!!). One other trick is to make sure that the end piece is SLIGHTLY up the = diagonal. The "pointy" end of the end piece needs to be SLIGHTLY proud = of the top of the apex seal. As the motor is torqued, the end plate = will push the end piece down the diagonal and will break the superglue = bond - you can distinctly hear the clicks as the superglue lets go. (If = you don't get it right, you will have compression problems until the = superglue bond breaks with the heat. (Go figure how I know!! (}:>) SIDE SEAL FAIURE As for your compression problems, I reckon that you had a side seal = SPRING collapse. They tend to wear on the bends. They don't have to = wear much to seriuously compromise their strength. Get one of the old = ones and try bending it. Most probably it will bend easily, and = probably break. Once the spring fails, the side seal itself is not = properly supported, and will in the fullness of time, do what yours = did - break! =20 SEAL DURABILITY As for the durability of the side seals themselves, I've over the past = 30 odd years, I've re-used second hand ones over & over in cheap = rebuilds several times, as long as they come up to thickness and depth = and length specs. But I ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS replace the corner seal = and side seal SPRINGS - EVERY rebuild, as well as ALWAYS fitting NEW = corner seals. 90% of comprtession problems in rotaries comes from the = corner seal clearances. If the new seal is a little too tight, you = can usually make it fit by linishing off the top edges a little with = some Wet&Dry (320 is about the right grade). On second hand rotors, = the corner seal hole ends up slightly oval, so a slightly bigger seal = will fit if you reduce down the ends where the apex seal goes. The corner seal should NOT fall out when you turn the rotor over. If it = does, it's too loose!!! They should be a nice sliding fit with just = enough resistance to NOT fall out when upside down. If you measure each = corner seal diameter, you will find a variation. Careful selection and = fit will ensure perfect compression. Buy an extra packet of them to make = sure you get the sizes right.=20 They are cheap, good insurance, and it is just common sense that the = side seal springs, being so fine, (especially the REW ones) are pretty = delicate little things. BTW, always use the latest corner seal springs = too. The twisted sheet ones (out of the REW and Renesis engines), not = the wire ones. They are much more resistant to heat stress. Enjoy, Leon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Leonard=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 6:16 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Help!! Installing Tracy's apex seals In Bruce's video he talks about putting the corner piece of the apex = seal toward the front of the engine. But with Tracy's seals the corner = piece is not attached. So I cannot get the apex seal spring to slide in = because the corner piece (now down at the bottom of the slot) has slid = back a little.=20 If I put the corner piece toward the rear of the engine, I am able to = get everything in place just fine. Is there any problem with putting the corner pieces in last (toward = the rear of the engine)? --=20 Dave Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C5D0B0.8B99A150 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yair G'Day Dave,
 
END PIECES
 
The easy way is to glue the end pieces = on with=20 superglue.  All late model Madza seals are supplied pre-glued. = Trouble=20 is,  if you have to dissassemb;le the engine,  they need to be = re-glued.  I've been doing this for 25 years now.  All you = need is=20 just a TINY drop.  Lay a piece = of "Gladwrap"=20 down on a FLAT surface,  lightly oil your fingers and wipe = gently with=20 a rag (so the superglue doesn't stick to them),  and make sure the = mating=20 surfaces of the apex end piece and the apex seal itself is clinically = clean (I=20 use carby-clean,  but nail polish remover,  MEK,  or = acetone does=20 the job equally as well).  I normally give them a light scuff with = some 800=20 wet&dry as well.
 
Put a SMALL drop of the superglue on = the end of the=20 apex seal,  lay it down on the "Gladwrap",  and then lay the = end piece=20 down and push together. Make sure that the sides are in the one = plane=20 (otherwise,  you won't get the endpiece past the corner=20 seal). Voila!  C'est magnifique!
 
You then avoid this silly business = of putting=20 the end pieces in first (almost guaranteed to cause a problem as you = can't see=20 what you are doing).  Trim off any overflow of the superglue,  = and=20 then fit the seal trouble free. (As long as you made the superglue = bond=20 correctly! Otherwise they become "devil" pieces - where the devil did = that go!=20 REAL "fun" at 2:30 am on a Sunday morning when you have to be at = scrutineering=20 at 7:30 am - NOT!!!).
 
One other trick is to make sure that = the end piece=20 is SLIGHTLY up the diagonal.  The "pointy" end of the end piece = needs to be=20 SLIGHTLY proud of the top of the apex seal.  As the motor is=20 torqued,  the end plate will push the end piece down the diagonal = and will=20 break the superglue bond - you can distinctly hear the clicks as = the=20 superglue lets go. (If you don't get it right,  you will have=20 compression problems until the superglue bond breaks with the heat. (Go = figure=20 how I know!! (}:>)
 
SIDE SEAL FAIURE
 
As for your compression problems,  = I reckon=20 that you had a side seal SPRING collapse.  They tend to wear on the = bends.  They don't have to wear much to seriuously compromise their = strength.  Get one of the old ones and try bending it.  Most = probably=20 it will bend easily,  and probably break.  Once the spring=20 fails,  the side seal itself is not properly supported,  and = will in=20 the fullness of time,  do what yours did - break!  =
 
SEAL DURABILITY
 
As for the durability of the side seals = themselves,  I've over the past 30 odd years, I've re-used second = hand ones=20 over & over in cheap rebuilds several times,  as long as they = come up=20 to thickness and depth and length specs.  But I ALWAYS, ALWAYS,=20 ALWAYS  replace the corner seal and side seal SPRINGS - EVERY = rebuild,=20 as well as ALWAYS fitting NEW corner seals.  90% of comprtession = problems=20 in rotaries comes from the corner seal clearances.   If the = new seal=20 is a little too tight,  you can usually make it fit by linishing = off the=20 top edges a little with some Wet&Dry (320 is about the right = grade). =20 On second hand rotors,  the corner seal hole ends up slightly = oval, =20 so a slightly bigger seal will fit if you reduce down the ends where the = apex=20 seal goes.
 
The corner seal should NOT fall out = when you turn=20 the rotor over. If it does,  it's too loose!!!  They should be = a nice=20 sliding fit with just enough resistance to NOT fall out when upside = down. =20 If you measure each corner seal diameter,  you will find a = variation. =20 Careful selection and fit will ensure perfect compression. Buy an extra = packet=20 of them to make sure you get the sizes right. 
 
They are cheap,  good = insurance,  and it=20 is just common sense that the side seal springs,  being so=20 fine, (especially the REW ones) are pretty delicate little=20 things.  BTW,  always use the latest corner seal springs = too. =20 The twisted sheet ones (out of the REW and Renesis engines),  not = the wire=20 ones.  They are much more resistant to heat stress.
 
Enjoy,
 
Leon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David=20 Leonard
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, = 2005 6:16=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Help!! = Installing=20 Tracy's apex seals

In Bruce's video he talks about putting the corner piece of the = apex seal=20 toward the front of the engine.  But with Tracy's seals the = corner piece=20 is not attached. So I cannot get the apex seal spring to slide in = because the=20 corner piece (now down at the bottom of the slot) has slid back a = little.=20
 
If I put the corner piece toward the rear of the engine, I am = able to get=20 everything in place just fine.
 
Is there any problem with putting the corner pieces in last = (toward the=20 rear of the engine)?

--
Dave Leonard
Turbo = Rotary RV-6=20 N4VY
http://memb= ers.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html
http://members= .aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html=20
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