Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-01.southeast.rr.com ([24.93.67.82] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.1) with ESMTP id 2531938 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:07:02 -0400 Received: from o7y6b5 (clt78-221.carolina.rr.com [24.93.78.221]) by ms-smtp-01.southeast.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with SMTP id h7ID0Cct023210 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:00:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <004701c3658a$d6bb57c0$1702a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] today's engine results- still no joy Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:15:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0044_01C36569.4F669440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C36569.4F669440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message=20 =20 =20 8-17-03 / 8 hours / 1336 total =20 Started the engine with new injectors, and didn't note any improvement = (grumble, grumble). Here's the troubleshooting sequence. All testing = today was at low power of 3000 rpm and below, and the backup controller = never made any difference. =20 Original condition: =20 Normal - rough (using primaries) Primary sw off- smooth (using secondaries) Secondary sw off- rough (using primaries)=20 =20 Swapped Primary and Secondary wires in the engine compartment: Normal- rough (using secondaries) Primary sw off- rough (using primaries) Secondary sw off- smooth (using secondaries) =20 The above test is of course a contradiction, but I tend to believe the = individual tests, not the one with both switches on. Rusty, I don't necessarily see a contradiction in the above condition. = In both cases, when the primary injectors are switched OFF (whether = using the Primary Switch (Original Condition) or when using the = Secondary Switch (Swapped Condition)), the engine runs smoothly. I agree = that the second configuration in Normal mode (both switches on), you = might expect the secondaries to run smoothly acting as primaries (since = they ran smoothly as secondaries) - however, that would depend on their = flow rate - if the secondaries are higher flow rate (>460 cc/min), then = it might cause the mixture to be overly rich when acting as primary = injectors at lower rpms. =20 Replaced Primary injector connectors (pri and sec wires still = reversed): Things do seem better, but it's hard to believe, especially since the = original plugs looked so much better than the ones that I have installed = now. Still not sure this made a difference. The engine will now run = reasonably well with either primary or secondary switch off, but I = noticed that the mixture is way different for each. Maybe this has been = part of the problem all along. =20 If the primary and secondary injectors are not the same flow rate = then you should expect the mixture condition will be considerably = different for the same mixture and programmed setting. The EC2 is = sending the same pulse width to both sets of injectors. Therefore, if = one set has a higher flow rate than the other, then the actual fuel = injected will be higher for the same pulse width signal. Put the primary and secondary wiring back to normal, but left the = replacement primary plugs installed: I can still make either set of injectors run the engine alone, but = turning on the secondaries, when at 12" MAP makes the mixture go crazy, = and I can't seem to find a mixture setting that is smooth. I can't see = why turning the secondary injectors off and on makes any difference at = this power setting, since they aren't supposed to be on anyway. Tried = manually setting mode 7 at 15" again, and nothing changed (as it = shouldn't). =20 You are right, turning on the secondaries shouldn't have any effect IF = the system has not staged. Unless: 1. There might be a wiring problem OR 2. Your manifold line to the EC2 is not carrying the appropriate = pressure signal. IF it were plugged, leaking or not attached, then the = EC2 could see near WOT pressure signal (29.92"HG) even at idle rpm and = the secondaries WOULD stage (regardless of rpm) and provide too much = fuel at lower rpm. To make matter even more confusing, at some point, I noticed that = turning off and on the secondaries at very low power stopped making a = difference in the mixture. This is how you would expect it to work, but = it sure isn't how it was working a few minutes earlier!!! =20 =20 I share your frustration, Rusty. Some of my early injector problems = 'bout drove me crazy - maybe did. In any case, here is my take on = things. 1. First, make certain you know which injectors you have (flow rate = and impedance), otherwise your just guessing at what the problem is. . 2. Second, I am fairly certain that Tracy's default MAP is set for = the 460 cc/min stock Mazda Injectors. With these injectors the idle/low = rpm is on the milely rich side, the intermeditate about right, and the = high rpm perhaps a bit lean. IF you use a 550 cc/m (or higher) in the primaries then the idle will = be considerably too rich, the intermediate rpm a bit on the rich side = and the high rpm probably close to being on the money. Once the engine = is at higher rpm >4500, the engine will run farily smoothly with a = considerable excess of fuel that would cause rough running at lower = rpms.=20 3. IF I did not know your background, I would suspect that perhaps = you could have a wiring problem in that the primaries and "cold start" = mode might be both on. That would cause way too much fuel for low rpm, = but might run (rough) at high rpm. That might explain why it would run = on secondaries smoothly but not on primaries. Also, IF the "cold start" = mode was on then you would have to turn down the mixture (Waaayyy down) = and program it leaner to get it to run on the primaries. Turning off the = primaries might also turn off the cold start mode (if in the unlikely = case it was miswired). Probably not the case, but might want to check = for certain. 4. Have you put a manifold gauge on the vaccum lines running from = your manifold to your EC2 and confirmed you are getting the appropriate = pressure? =20 Hope some of this may help Best Regards Ed Anderson ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C36569.4F669440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
 

 

 

8-17-03  = /  8 hours  /  1336 total

 

Started the engine with new injectors, and = didn=92t note=20 any improvement (grumble, grumble). =20 Here=92s the troubleshooting sequence.  All testing today was at low = power of=20 3000 rpm and below, and the backup controller never made any=20 difference.

 

Original condition: 

Normal =96 rough =20 (using primaries)

Primary sw off- smooth (using = secondaries)

Secondary sw off- rough (using primaries) =

 

Swapped Primary and Secondary wires in the = engine=20 compartment:

Normal-=20 rough (using secondaries)

Primary sw off- rough (using = primaries)

Secondary sw off- smooth (using = secondaries)

 

The above test is of course a contradiction, = but I tend=20 to believe the individual tests, not the one with both switches = on.

 

Rusty, I don't necessarily see a contradiction in the = above=20 condition.  In both cases, when the primary injectors are = switched OFF=20 (whether using the Primary Switch (Original Condition) or when  = using the=20 Secondary Switch (Swapped Condition)), the engine runs smoothly. I = agree that=20 the second configuration in Normal mode (both switches on), you might = expect=20 the secondaries to run smoothly acting as primaries (since they ran = smoothly=20 as secondaries) - however, that would depend on their flow rate - if = the=20 secondaries are higher flow rate (>460 cc/min), then it might cause = the=20 mixture to be overly rich when acting as primary injectors at lower=20 rpms.

 

 

Replaced Primary injector connectors (pri and = sec wires=20 still reversed):

Things do seem better, but it=92s hard to = believe,=20 especially since the original plugs looked so much better than the = ones that I=20 have installed now.  = Still not=20 sure this made a difference.  = The=20 engine will now run reasonably well with either primary or secondary = switch=20 off, but I noticed that the mixture is way different for each.  Maybe this has been part of = the=20 problem all along.

 

If the primary and secondary injectors are not the same flow = rate =20 then you should expect the mixture condition will be considerably = different=20 for the same mixture and programmed setting.  The EC2 is sending = the same=20 pulse width to both sets of injectors.  Therefore, if one set has = a=20 higher flow rate than the other, then the actual fuel injected will be = higher=20 for the same pulse width signal.

 

 

Put the primary and secondary wiring back to = normal,=20 but left the replacement primary plugs = installed:

I=20 can still make either set of injectors run the engine alone, but = turning on=20 the secondaries, when at 12=94 MAP makes the mixture go crazy, and I = can=92t seem=20 to find a mixture setting that is smooth.  I can=92t see why turning = the secondary=20 injectors off and on makes any difference at this power setting, since = they=20 aren=92t supposed to be on anyway. =20 Tried manually setting mode 7 at 15=94 again, and nothing = changed (as it=20 shouldn=92t).

 

You=20 are right, turning on the secondaries shouldn't have any effect IF the = system=20 has not staged. Unless:

1. There might be a wiring problem OR

2.  Your manifold line to the EC2 is not carrying = the=20 appropriate pressure signal.  IF it were plugged, = leaking or=20 not attached, then the EC2 could see near WOT pressure signal = (29.92"HG) even=20 at idle rpm and the secondaries WOULD stage (regardless of rpm) = and=20 provide too much fuel at lower rpm.

 

To=20 make matter even more confusing, at some point, I noticed that turning = off and=20 on the secondaries at very low power stopped making a difference in = the=20 mixture.  This is how = you would=20 expect it to work, but it sure isn=92t how it was working a few = minutes=20 earlier!!! 

 

 

 

I share your frustration, Rusty.  Some of my = early injector=20 problems 'bout drove me crazy - maybe did.  In any case, here is = my take=20 on things.

 

1.  First, make certain you know which injectors = you have=20 (flow rate and impedance), otherwise your just guessing at what the = problem=20 is.

.

2.  Second, I am fairly certain that Tracy's = default MAP is=20 set for the 460 cc/min stock Mazda Injectors.  With these = injectors the=20 idle/low rpm is on the milely rich side, the intermeditate about = right, and=20 the high rpm perhaps a bit lean.

 

IF you use a 550 cc/m (or higher) in the=20 primaries then the idle will be considerably too rich, the=20 intermediate rpm a bit on the rich side and the high rpm = probably=20 close to being on the money.  Once the engine is at higher rpm = >4500,=20 the engine will run  farily smoothly with a considerable = excess of=20 fuel that would cause rough running at lower rpms.

 

3.  IF I did not know your background, I = would=20 suspect that perhaps you could have a wiring problem in that the=20 primaries and "cold start" mode might be both on.  That would = cause way=20 too much fuel for low rpm, but might run (rough) at high rpm.  = That might=20 explain why it would run on secondaries smoothly but not on = primaries. =20 Also, IF the "cold start" mode was on then you would have to turn down = the=20 mixture (Waaayyy down) and program it leaner to get it to run on the=20 primaries. Turning off the primaries might also turn off the cold = start=20 mode (if in the unlikely case it was miswired).   Probably not the case, but might want = to check=20 for certain.

 

 4.  Have you put a manifold gauge on the = vaccum lines=20 running from your manifold to your EC2 and confirmed you are getting = the=20 appropriate pressure? 

 

Hope some of this may help

 

Best Regards

 

Ed Anderson

 

 

 

 

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