X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from relay03.roc.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.182.166] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.6) with ESMTP id 613527 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:43:00 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.133.182.166; envelope-from=canarder@frontiernet.net Received: from filter09.roc.ny.frontiernet.net (filter09.roc.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.183.76]) by relay03.roc.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13C423580F6 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:42:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from relay03.roc.ny.frontiernet.net ([66.133.182.166]) by filter09.roc.ny.frontiernet.net (filter09.roc.ny.frontiernet.net [66.133.183.76]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 11975-12-92 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:42:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (67-137-69-194.dsl2.cok.tn.frontiernet.net [67.137.69.194]) by relay03.roc.ny.frontiernet.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 220B335813C for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:42:14 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <42E3D2EA.4090105@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:42:02 -0500 From: Jim Sower User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040514 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Lyc debugging / Strange Aerodynamics References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040309060805060604000607" X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0529-2, 07/21/2005), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at filter09.roc.ny.frontiernet.net This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040309060805060604000607 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tracy Crook wrote: > More Data Captain! > > The CHT data is not any good for diagnostic purposes in this > scenario. If you had fuel flow info as someone asked about, that > would be good. You didn't mention EGT. Got any? How about manifold > pressure? Not likely to have this on a Lyc, but mixture info from O2 > sensor would be even better. I won't leave home without it after > getting used to it. > Can't answer for Kevin, but I have Fuel Flow and MAP (which were both > consistant with the power I was getting - 2100-2200 rpm). All 4 CHTs > were pretty normal. EGTs were more scattered, sometimes a little > erratic (I speculated they were consistent with running 300 rpm LOP). > Fuel pressure was not available then, but is now (haven't flown since > I limped home). Main thing about is that electric boost pump works, > which my only viable theory said it wasn't. I have to get the > airplane annualed before I can fly again, but am open to ideas. The > mechanics at IJX would make a declaration of what the problem was and > then bend the laws of physics as necessary to support their conclusion. > Now for my mystery of the day. Was doing more tests on coil / > alternator cooling & wingtip testing today and got around to stall > tests. I was pleasantly surprised to find that my clean stall speed > was down a full 5 MPH. That is HUGE, especially from such a simple > mod. Repeated the test multiple times, accelerated, power on, idle, > 1 mph/ 10 second deceleration, the works. The change was real. Then > I tested 1/2 & full flap stall expecting that I would see the usual > 4-5 mph drop in stall speed. Absolutely no difference. Stall was the > same clean or dirty. > > Anyone care to take a stab at this? > > Tracy (still not happy with coil temps) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* kevin lane > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Saturday, July 23, 2005 4:33 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Lycoming debugging test - -HELP! > > I realize that this isn't exactly the right forum, but you guys > seem to have excellent debugging skills. my local RV group is > totally worthless ("I find the carnauba wax doesn't show > fingerprints as much as the....")(except Mike!) the on-field > mechanics are sick of me coming by. > my O-320 RV-6A is having RAG (rpm attention getter) problems. > it runs fine until about 300' on take-off, then the rpm's drop to > like 1700 (from 2200). switching mags to electronic > ignition(Rose) makes no difference. mixture no diff. pulling > the throttle it will seem to run fine at 1700rpm. I have 4 new > cyls that I am attempting to break in. ground run ups can only go > like 2 minutes before CHT's exceed 400 degrees. I discovered I > can get the rpm drop on the ground if I run it a minute or so full > power. cht's will typically approach 415 degrees when the drop > takes place. I don't know if the temp is significant or not, it > does seem that way. I have a brand new slick left mag. rose > checked the electronic ignition and could find nothing wrong, even > put it in an oven to test. I installed a new carb since the old > one showed signs of leakage (and I'm at whits end). no change. > my fuel pressure has been showing 8psi this last year, up from 6 > psi when originally installed.(no idea why) I installed a > pressure regulator in-line which works like a charm. I can dial > whatever pressure I like. 2 psi makes no difference. I bypassed > the mechanical fuel pump and ran it just on the facet electric. 2 > psi, no difference. I discovered that you can run the carb for > maybe 30 secs with no fuel pressure while it burns off the bowl > gas. premier engines suggested induction leak making the engine > run lean. no leaks detected cold or hot engine. (pressurized > intake with vacuum, sprayed soapy water) > if the engine didn't run right to start with then many > explanations would hold. but it runs fine for several minutes. > it runs the same under mag or electronic ignition both before and > after the problem kicks in. everyone really wants to blame the > rose ignition, but I'm not seeing any connection. with such a > quick run-up my oil temp barely registers, so I doubt parts are > seizing. I have new mineral oil in it for breakin right now. > there is a bit of MMO in the fuel too I believe, left over from a > mechanics "what the hell" attempt from way back. my cyls are all > new, rebuilts, so no valve problems. I checked the push rod > lengths when I reinstalled them. the engine isn't missing when > the problems occurs, it simply won't run faster and it seems to > prefer the throttle pulled back to match the rpm it is putting > out. I can't figure out any more lean mixture scenarios to try. > the new carb runs just like the old one did. I recently replaced > the mag harness with a much newer, used one. I tested it and it > was fine. the plugs are all new, but again, no diff between mag > and elec ignition. if I flip the ignition to R and shut off the > elect ig then the engine quits as would be expected, no wiring > problems. > fuel, spark, air, timing, that's all there is. this damn > lycoming lawn mower has me stumped. my engine has been running > fine up until this (hey, we all have "cracked" cylinders, get out > your microscope and look!). you guys have any ideas? > Kevin Lane Portland, OR > e-mail-> n3773@comcast.net > > ----- Original > --------------040309060805060604000607 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tracy Crook wrote:
More Data Captain!
 
The CHT data is not any good for diagnostic purposes in this scenario.  If you had fuel flow info as someone asked about, that would be good.  You didn't mention EGT.  Got any? How about manifold pressure?   Not likely to have this on a Lyc, but mixture info from O2 sensor would be even better.  I won't leave home without it after getting used to it.
Can't answer for Kevin, but I have Fuel Flow and MAP (which were both consistant with the power I was getting - 2100-2200 rpm).  All 4 CHTs were pretty normal.  EGTs were more scattered, sometimes a little erratic (I speculated they were consistent with running 300 rpm LOP).  Fuel pressure was not available then, but is now (haven't flown since I limped home).  Main thing about is that electric boost pump works, which my only viable theory said it wasn't.  I have to get the airplane annualed before I can fly again, but am open to ideas.  The mechanics at IJX would make a declaration of what the problem was and then bend the laws of physics as necessary to support their conclusion.
Now for my mystery of the day. Was doing more tests on coil / alternator cooling & wingtip testing today and got around to stall tests.  I was pleasantly surprised to find that my clean stall speed was down a full 5 MPH.  That is HUGE,  especially from such a simple mod.   Repeated the test multiple times, accelerated, power on, idle, 1 mph/ 10 second deceleration, the works.  The change was real.   Then I tested 1/2 & full flap stall expecting that I would see the usual 4-5 mph drop in stall speed.  Absolutely no difference.  Stall was the same clean or dirty.
 
Anyone care to take a stab at this?
 
Tracy  (still not happy with coil temps)
 
----- Original Message -----
From: kevin lane
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 4:33 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Lycoming debugging test - -HELP!

I realize that this isn't exactly the right forum, but you guys seem to have excellent debugging skills.  my local RV group is totally worthless ("I find the carnauba wax doesn't show fingerprints as much as the....")(except Mike!)  the on-field mechanics are sick of me coming by.
    my O-320 RV-6A is having RAG (rpm attention getter) problems.  it runs fine until about 300' on take-off, then the rpm's drop to like 1700 (from 2200).  switching mags to electronic ignition(Rose) makes no difference.  mixture no diff.  pulling the throttle it will seem to run fine at 1700rpm.  I have 4 new cyls that I am attempting to break in.  ground run ups can only go like 2 minutes before CHT's exceed 400 degrees.  I discovered I can get the rpm drop on the ground if I run it a minute or so full power.  cht's will typically approach 415 degrees when the drop takes place.  I don't know if the temp is significant or not, it does seem that way.  I have a brand new slick left mag.  rose checked the electronic ignition and could find nothing wrong, even put it in an oven to test.  I installed a new carb since the old one showed signs of leakage (and I'm at whits end).  no change.  my fuel pressure has been showing 8psi this last year, up from 6 psi when originally installed.(no idea why)  I installed a pressure regulator in-line which works like a charm.  I can dial whatever pressure I like.  2 psi makes no difference.  I bypassed the mechanical fuel pump and ran it just on the facet electric.  2 psi, no difference. I discovered that you can run the carb for maybe 30 secs with no fuel pressure while it burns off the bowl gas. premier engines suggested induction leak making the engine run lean.  no leaks detected cold or hot engine. (pressurized intake with vacuum, sprayed soapy water)
    if the engine didn't run right to start with then many explanations would hold.  but it runs fine for several minutes.  it runs the same under mag or electronic ignition both before and after the problem kicks in.  everyone really wants to blame the rose ignition, but I'm not seeing any connection.  with such a quick run-up my oil temp barely registers, so I doubt parts are seizing.  I have new mineral oil in it for breakin right now.  there is a bit of MMO in the fuel too I believe, left over from a mechanics "what the hell" attempt from way back.  my cyls are all new, rebuilts, so no valve problems.  I checked the push rod lengths when I reinstalled them.  the engine isn't missing when the problems occurs, it simply won't run faster and it seems to prefer the throttle pulled back to match the rpm it is putting out.  I can't figure out any more lean mixture scenarios to try.  the new carb runs just like the old one did.  I recently replaced the mag harness with a much newer, used one.  I tested it and it was fine.  the plugs are all new, but again, no diff between mag and elec ignition.  if I flip the ignition to R and shut off the elect ig then the engine quits as would be expected, no wiring problems.
    fuel, spark, air, timing, that's all there is.  this damn lycoming lawn mower has me stumped.  my engine has been running fine up until this (hey, we all have "cracked" cylinders, get out your microscope and look!).  you guys have any ideas?
Kevin Lane  Portland, OR
e-mail-> n3773@comcast.net
----- Original
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