X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.103] (HELO ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.5) with ESMTP id 1024644 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:38:31 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.103; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-065-188-083-049.carolina.res.rr.com [65.188.83.49]) by ms-smtp-04-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j5SDbeL5007964 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:37:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000d01c57be6$94850fd0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Leak Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:37:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C57BC5.0D3A3760" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C57BC5.0D3A3760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mark, Didn't meant to create any alarm about my "O" ring comments. If you are = using the TES "O" rings then I think you can rest comfortable with any = reasonable engine temp. My TES "O" rings were compromised by the = extreme localized heating of the rotor/apex piece rubbing against the = side housing (not the due to any defect of the "O" ring) - you could see = that the O ring was shrunken adjacent to the hot spot but "proud" to the = housing the rest of the way around. Your temp profile seems normal to me. I was joking about adding the = cup of air, I simply find that after 2-3 flights the system simple does = not appear to have any air in it. My theory is that the air gets heated = and expelled through the radiator cap into my overflow tank, whereupon = it is replaced by coolant flowing back into the system. After a few = flights, I started to get the "immediate" increase in coolant pressure = upon startup - but, once the engine is warmed it settles back down to = under 10 psi. I've flow it this way for over 250 hours with no ill effects that I can = detect. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark R Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 9:18 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Leak Hi Ed, I haven't paid real close attention to my coolant pressures up to now. = Not seeing anything "unusual", I typically focus on other stuff. Best = I recall, my coolant pressure starts at 0 and gradually increases. I = have not noticed any quick rise immediately following startup. But = then, the coolant pressure sensor is locate at the thermostat housing = (no thermostat). So, I'm measuring coolant pressures between the block = and radiator. The highest pressure I recall seeing so far is about = 24psi after running for 20-30 minutes and temps are in the 212 degree = range. I have to admit that I've been ignorant and uninformed as to the = need for a cup-o-air in my system and have to this date "filled it to = the brim". I guess I need to add a cup-o-air the first chance I get. =20 =20 I don't follow you on the potential damage to the o-rings. The TES = o-rings are supposed to be good to 500 degrees (I let you test that = theory). They're supposed to be good for 100 degrees over the stock = o-rings, so I should have a considerably higher margin of safety here. = I would be more concerned with blowing a radiator hose, but I'm using = aluminum tubing with Wiggins type couplings, so I don't think I'll be = blowing them apart anytime soon. I guess the weakest link in my system = is the heater hoses. While they're top of the line Gates hose, I plan = on changing to silicone heater hose before first flight. =20 =20 Mark (Happy to hear you got home safely) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 9:29 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Leak =20 Mark, =20 The phenomena which started this thread was the immediate rise in = pressure during initial start up in some installations (mine for = instance) when all air has been removed from the coolant system. Once = my engine warms up the pressure runs around 8 psi and may climb as high = as 10psi if temps are higher than 200F. It is true that higher = pressure delays the temperature that water boils at - but, higher = pressure may also work against your waterpump seal and cause leaks (just = a thought). I personally prefer to run at lower coolant pressures since = my radiator cap has a max of 21-24 psi. I suspect that while a higher = PSI may indeed delay the onset of the coolant boiling - if your engine = is that hot - you will probably have cooked something (like "O" rings = {:>)).=20 =20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark R Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 10:07 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Leak =20 =20 Ed,=20 Not to stir the swirl pot, but I thought that it was decided some = time back that higher pressures were better than lower pressures. The = higher pressures are supposed provide more margin of safety before a = boil-over occurs, permitting a thinner ethylene-glycol solution and = enabling the engine to tolerate higher temps before experiencing = catastrophic boiling. So, I'm wondering where this leaves us. Is it = better to run at low (7-8 psi) pressures, or high (28-30psi) pressures? = =20 Mark S.=20 =20 I agree, Al, inquiring minds at least like a plausible hypothesis = and I think the discussion has led to that. Perhaps I'll leave the = "cup" of air, just for peace of mind {:>)=20 Ed ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C57BC5.0D3A3760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Mark,
 
Didn't meant to create any alarm about my "O" = ring=20 comments.  If you are using the TES "O" rings then I think you can = rest=20 comfortable with any reasonable engine temp.  My TES "O" rings were = compromised by the extreme localized heating of the rotor/apex piece = rubbing=20 against the side housing (not the due to any defect of the "O" = ring) -=20 you could see that the O ring was shrunken adjacent to the hot spot but = "proud"=20 to the housing the rest of the way around.
 
Your temp profile seems normal to = me.   I was=20 joking about adding the cup of air, I simply find that after 2-3 flights = the=20 system simple does not appear to have any air in it.  My theory is = that the=20 air gets heated and expelled through the radiator cap into my overflow = tank,=20 whereupon it is replaced by coolant flowing back into the system.  = After a=20 few flights, I started to get the "immediate" increase in coolant = pressure upon=20 startup - but, once the engine is warmed it settles back down to under = 10=20 psi.
 
I've flow it this way for over 250 hours with no = ill=20 effects that I can detect.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mark R Steitle =
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 = 9:18=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Coolant=20 Leak

Hi=20 Ed,

I haven=92t = paid real=20 close attention to my coolant pressures up to now.  Not seeing = anything=20 =93unusual=94, I typically focus on other stuff.  Best I recall, = my coolant=20 pressure starts at 0 and gradually increases.  I have not noticed = any=20 quick rise immediately following startup.  But then, the coolant = pressure=20 sensor is locate at the thermostat housing (no thermostat).  So, = I=92m=20 measuring coolant pressures between the block and radiator.  The = highest=20 pressure I recall seeing so far is about 24psi after running for 20-30 = minutes=20 and temps are in the 212 degree range.  I have to admit that = I=92ve been=20 ignorant and uninformed as to the need for a cup-o-air in my system = and have=20 to this date =93filled it to the brim=94.  I guess I need to add = a cup-o-air=20 the first chance I get. 

 

I don=92t = follow you on=20 the potential damage to the o-rings.  The TES o-rings are = supposed to be=20 good to 500 degrees (I let you test that theory).  They=92re = supposed to be=20 good for 100 degrees over the stock o-rings, so I should have a = considerably=20 higher margin of safety here.  I would be more concerned with = blowing a=20 radiator hose, but I=92m using aluminum tubing with Wiggins type = couplings, so I=20 don=92t think I=92ll be blowing them apart anytime soon.  I guess = the weakest=20 link in my system is the heater hoses.  While they=92re top of = the line=20 Gates hose, I plan on changing to silicone heater hose before first=20 flight. =20 =        

 

Mark

(Happy to = hear you=20 got home safely)

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed = Anderson
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 = 9:29=20 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Coolant Leak

 

Mark,

 

The phenomena which = started this=20 thread was the immediate rise in pressure during initial start up in = some=20 installations (mine for instance) when all air has been removed from = the=20 coolant system.  Once my engine warms up the pressure runs around = 8 psi=20 and may climb as high as 10psi if temps are higher than = 200F.   It=20 is true that higher pressure delays the temperature that water boils = at - but,=20 higher pressure may also work against your waterpump seal and cause = leaks=20 (just a thought).  I personally prefer to run at lower coolant = pressures=20 since my radiator cap has a max of 21-24 psi.  I suspect that = while a=20 higher PSI may indeed delay the onset of the coolant boiling - if your = engine=20 is that hot - you will probably have cooked something (like "O" rings=20 {:>)).

 

Ed

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: Mark R Steitle=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: Monday,=20 June 27, 2005 10:07 AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Leak

 

 

Ed,=20

Not to = stir the=20 swirl pot, but I thought that it was decided some time back that = higher=20 pressures were better than lower pressures.  The higher = pressures are=20 supposed provide more margin of safety before a boil-over occurs, = permitting=20 a thinner ethylene-glycol solution and enabling the engine to = tolerate=20 higher temps before experiencing catastrophic boiling.  So, = I=92m=20 wondering where this leaves us.  Is it better to run at low = (7-8 psi)=20 pressures, or high (28-30psi) pressures?  =

 

Mark S.=20

 


I agree, Al, = inquiring minds=20 at least like a plausible hypothesis and I think the discussion has = led to=20 that.  Perhaps I'll leave the "cup" of air, just for peace of = mind=20 {:>)=20

Ed

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C57BC5.0D3A3760--