X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao06.cox.net ([68.230.241.33] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.5) with ESMTP id 1024031 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:45:53 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.33; envelope-from=ALVentures@cox.net Received: from BigAl ([68.7.14.39]) by fed1rmmtao06.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP id <20050627224505.DYVM19494.fed1rmmtao06.cox.net@BigAl> for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:45:05 -0400 From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: NPG + use in aircraft?? Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:45:17 -0700 Message-ID: <000501c57b69$e4230510$6400a8c0@BigAl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C57B2F.37C42D10" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C57B2F.37C42D10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: NPG + use in aircraft?? =20 How do you know which "boiling is occuring?Is the Nucleate boiling detectable? Georges B. =20 Nucleate boiling will most likely, but not necessarily, occur at high = power level and high coolant temps, and you will see coolant pressure probably about equal to cap pressure. Film boiling will is evidenced by max = cooling temps, high and fluctuating pressure (spikes exceeding cap pressure) as large steam bubbles form and collapse. Large amounts of coolant will = likely be lost if the condition isn't remedied very promptly. =20 Al G. =20 -------Original Message------- =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Date: 06/27/05 13:15:12 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: NPG + use in aircraft?? =20 =20 George B.; =20 Nucleate boiling (small steam bubbles forming and dissipating) provides = the highest heat transfer coefficient from the surface to the coolant; = better than no boiling. Film boiling, on the other hand, is when there is a = layer of steam between surface and coolant, and the heat transfer coefficient drops precipitously. The occurrence of film boiling is a very bad = thing, causes serious hot spots in the walls, and can damage the engine. =20 Al G. =20 P.S. Can we dis the background on these messages? =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Echo Lake Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher) Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 11:51 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: NPG + use in aircraft?? =20 Rusty "boiling removes heat" I have a hard time understanding that quote. When racers started using PG they were able to run 15:1 compression on "pump" fuel=20 due to the fact that boiling coolant created hot spots in the = combustion chambers & in turn causes pre-ignition (they also reversed the coolant = flow direction to bring the cooled coolant to the hottest part of the system, = & all this with no pressure cap. The one disadvantage I see in the 13b is = that it can't handle the potential higher boiling point of PG. I have a 3.0 L = V6 that I reversed the cooling system on to use in the Christavia (that was before I got hooked on the 13B) Georges B. -------Original Message------- =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Date: 06/27/05 12:13:55 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: NPG + use in aircraft?? =20 Has anyone used the NPG+ coolant in an aircraft? What are the pros and cons? =20 =20 NPG+ is standard issue in the 912S, and perhaps the 912 also. If I'm = not mistaken, Dave Leonard is running NPG+ now, and I'm running NPG-R. =20 =20 The Evan's marketing folks can give you way more pros than I can think = of, but I do think it's working very well. The primary benefit is the fact = that it's native boiling point is in the 375F range, so you don't have to = worry about a cascade effect of boil over if you unexpectedly run hot, lose pressure, etc. It's also not supposed to be subject to localized = boiling around hot spots in the engine. Evan's claims this as a big benefit, = but others, such as Tracy, think this boiling helps remove heat. It's a bit more environmentally friendly too, so it won't hurt the rats in John's hanger. =20 =20 The high boiling temp means that you don't need to run a pressurized = system, which is my favorite part. There's less stress on the system, and any = leak that occurs, will be much slower (initially) than if there was pressure. = I added an air separator tank, with a level sensor inside, so if I get a = leak, I'll know about it before it gets to the level of the top of the engine. That was the best detection method I could think of.=20 =20 The down side is the cost, and the fact that it doesn't transfer heat as effectively as traditional EG/water mix. Your temps will almost = certainly go up some, but at least you won't boil over. =20 =20 If the oil temp is below 180 F but the coolant is above 220F, is this detrimental to the 13B??=20 =20 Define "above" :-) I don't think there's anything harmful about 220F, = or a bit over that for coolant, since cars do it all the time. I believe the power will be reduced a bit at those temps though, and perhaps there = will be more wear on the engine. I've heard that, but can't say if it's significant, or even true. =20 =20 Cheers, Rusty=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C57B2F.37C42D10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: NPG + use in aircraft??

 

How do you know which "boiling is occuring?Is = the Nucleate boiling detectable?

Georges B.

 

Nucleate = boiling will most likely, but not necessarily, occur at high power level and high = coolant temps, and you will see coolant pressure probably about equal to cap pressure.  Film boiling will is evidenced by max cooling temps, = high and fluctuating pressure (spikes exceeding cap pressure) as large steam = bubbles form and collapse.  Large amounts of coolant will likely be lost = if the condition isn’t remedied very promptly.

 

Al = G.

 

-------Original = Message-------

 

Date:= 06/27/05 13:15:12

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: NPG + use in aircraft??

 

 

George = B.;

 

Nucleate = boiling (small steam bubbles forming and dissipating) provides the highest = heat transfer coefficient from the surface to the coolant; better than no = boiling.  Film boiling, on the other hand, is when there is a layer of = steam between surface and coolant, and the heat transfer coefficient drops precipitously.  The occurrence of film boiling is a very bad = thing, causes serious hot spots in the walls, and can damage the = engine.

 

Al = G.

 

P.S.  = Can we dis the background on these messages?

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Echo Lake Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher)
Sent: = Monday, June 27, 2005 11:51 = AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: NPG + use in aircraft??

 

Rusty

"boiling removes = heat" I have a hard time understanding that quote. When racers started using = PG they were able to run 15:1 compression on "pump" = fuel 

 due to the fact that = boiling coolant created hot spots in the combustion chambers & in turn = causes pre-ignition (they also reversed the coolant flow direction to bring = the cooled coolant to the hottest part of the system, & all this = with no pressure cap. The one disadvantage I see in the 13b is that it can't = handle the potential higher boiling point of PG. I have a 3.0 L V6 that I = reversed the cooling system on to use in the Christavia (that was before I = got hooked on the 13B)

Georges = B.

-------Origina= l Message-------

 

Date: 06/27/05 12:13:55

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: NPG + use = in aircraft??

 

Has anyone used the NPG+ = coolant in an aircraft?  What are the pros and = cons?   

 

NPG+ is standard issue in = the 912S, and perhaps the 912 also.  If I'm not mistaken, Dave = Leonard is running NPG+ now, and I'm running = NPG-R.   

 

The Evan's marketing folks = can give you way more pros than I can think of, but I do think it's working very well.  The primary benefit is the fact that = it's native boiling point is in the 375F range, so you don't = have to worry about a cascade effect of boil over if you unexpectedly run = hot, lose pressure, etc.  It's also not supposed to be subject to = localized boiling around hot spots in the engine.  Evan's claims this as = a big benefit, but others, such as Tracy, think this boiling helps remove = heat.  It's a bit more environmentally friendly too, so it won't hurt the rats in = John's hanger.      

 

The high boiling temp = means that you don't need to run a pressurized system, which is my favorite part.  There's less stress on the system, and any leak that = occurs, will be much slower (initially) than if there was pressure. =   I added an air separator tank, with a level sensor inside, so if I get = a leak, I'll know about it before it gets to the level of the top of = the engine.  That was the best detection method I could think of. 

 

The down side is the cost, = and the fact that it doesn't transfer heat as effectively as traditional = EG/water mix.  Your temps will almost certainly go up some, but at least = you won't boil over.    

 

 If the oil temp is = below 180 F but the coolant is above 220F, is this detrimental to the = 13B?? 

 

Define "above" = :-)   I don't think there's anything harmful about 220F, or a bit over = that for coolant, since cars do it all the time.  I believe the = power will be reduced a bit at those temps though, and perhaps there will be = more wear on the engine.  I've heard that, but can't say if it's significant, or even true. 

 

Cheers,

Rusty

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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