X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-PolluStop: No license found, only first 5 messages were scanned Return-Path: Received: from [199.185.220.223] (HELO priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.4) with ESMTP id 993609 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 01:24:57 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=199.185.220.223; envelope-from=echolakeresort@telus.net Received: from boucher-oddle24 ([207.194.127.16]) by priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with SMTP id <20050613052407.LKJ14814.priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net@boucher-oddle24> for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:24:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <42AD1871.000004.07732@BOUCHER-ODDLE24> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 22:24:01 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time) Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_1CC0BHK0000000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail (3001609) From: "Echo Lake Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher)" References: To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] In Tank EFI Pumps was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: EFI Fuel Systems was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Is common sense dead (rant mode on) X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-Priority: 3 --------------Boundary-00=_1CC0BHK0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Leon=0D I couldn't see a good reason not to use them. My plan is to use them with the Ford sock/screen filter attached, suspending both pumps from the head= er tank lid with a baffle/screen above them to avoid returning fuel from aerating the fuel at the pickup end.=0D Georges B.=0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D Date: 06/12/05 22:09:15=0D To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D Subject: [FlyRotary] In Tank EFI Pumps was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: EFI Fuel Systems was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Is common sense dead (rant mode on)=0D =0D Hi Georges,=0D =0D Don't tell me that, I might get a swelled head (}:>).=0D =0D Yair, in-tank pumps are fine. just put 'em in a nice deep "surge" tank w= ith a false floor (baffle) and a drain to separate out any water. As long a= s the filtration mechanism is readily and easily serviceable. (I just HATE having to replace GMH Holden in-tank pumps though - they require draining the tank, and irespective, you can still get your arm pits soaked in fu= el if you are not careful. Nissan got it right with vertical access through the boot (trunk) floor. Really nice.=0D =0D The crucial issue is that if we follow normal proven auto practice, (of which I know you are a master), we shouldn't ever have any mechanical EFI problems (computers aside - a different can of worms). It's only when neophytes try to "improve" on what is known to be settled technology that strange problems can arise. =0D =0D I have always been impressed with the utter reliability of Bosch & Nippon Denso EFI componentry. Properly serviced, and supplied with clean, filtered, dry fuel, everything seems to last for ten or more years. The Mazda rotary EFI stuff rarely gives problerms unless it cops a load of wa= ter or really dirty fuel. Even then, normally all that is required is just = a filter change.=0D =0D Cheers mate,=0D =0D Leon =0D =0D ----- Original Message ----- =0D From: Echo Lake Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher) =0D To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0D Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:50 AM=0D Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EFI Fuel Systems was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Is comm= on sense dead (rant mode on)=0D =0D =0D Hi! Leon =0D You make sense as usual, can you see any reason not to use in- tank EFI pumps in a header tank instead of external units (I happen to have 4 in stock).=0D Georges B.=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D Date: 06/12/05 14:35:43=0D To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D Subject: [FlyRotary] EFI Fuel Systems was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Is common sense dead (rant mode on)=0D =0D Hi Guys,=0D =0D Gotta chime in here. This risk analysis stuff is all very interesting, b= ut fails to get to the important points, based on common sense and practica= l experience.=0D =0D How the hell can you ever get a vapour lock in an EFI system?? In an = EFI system, the fuel is supposed to ALWAYS be at a POSITIVE pressure of at least 30 PSI. At WOT, that pressure climbs to 45 PSI.=0D =0D Vapour locks normally occur in a mechanical system where a lift pump is=20 sucking" fuel from the tank and supplying it to a carburettor. Classic c= ase occurs on a V8 where the fuel will boil in the supply line because of the close proximity of the fuel line to an exhaust header. Bad initial desig= n,=20 which can be corrected by either re-routing the fuel line, and / or shielding it and insulating it.=0D =0D Further, the vapour lock can only occur if the system is at high temp, = and the fuel line is subjected to a partial vacuum of a lift pump. So the on= ly place it is possible to get a vapour lock in an EFI system is in the low pressure supply side when using a lift pump. If you are SILLY enough to have your EFI pump higher than the fuel supply, you can also get a vapou= r lock. EFI pumps are NOT designed to "Suck" anyway - they are blowers or pushers.=0D =0D Proper fuel system design requires that at all times, the lift pump AND the EFI pump(s) SHOULD ALWAYS have a head of fuel on them so that they ar= e not required to "Suck" fuel, and therefore can't subject the fuel supply line to a partial vacuum.=0D =0D The lift pump SHOULD supply what is commonly known as a "Surge" tank, or = a header tank, or a "make-up" tank. This tank, whatever you want to call= it is used to supply EFI pump(s) with a positive head of fuel. That is the way the system MUST be designed. If you do it any other way, sooner or later, it will bite you on the backside. Guaranteed!=0D =0D There is another possibility in a badly designed fuel system. AIR lock. Having experienced it myself, an air lock in the supply line is quite capable of reducing flow in the high pressure side of fuel supply. I won= 't bore you with specific details, but I have had it happen on more than on= e occasion.=0D =0D It will normally occur where the fuel line is higher than either the fuel rail or the injector supply. In such cases, it is imperative that a ble= ed nipple is installed to bleed out any air. This will be most evidenty whe= re there is no fuel return. My personal opinion is that anybody that runs a= n EFI system without a proper fuel return is just asking for it. A fuel return will assist, but will not necessarily eliminate an air lock in th= e fuel supply.=0D =0D There is a minimum system configuration complexity in any EFI system, be= low which, if you try to simplify it any further, can cause problems under certain conditions. I KNOW that many current model cas have returnless f= uel sustems, but the design is quite complex, and unless you understand the differences, you will not be able to implement such a system.=0D =0D =0D ----- Original Message ----- =0D From: al p wick =0D To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0D Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 4:39 PM=0D Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Is common sense dead (rant mode on)=0D =0D =0D =0D On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:48:53 -0500 "rijakits" writes:=0D Everyone here is interested in solutions, SPECIFIC solutions.=0D =0D =0D =0D Specifically, Follow this general principal:=0D When you have a theory, find way to prove it's true. Use facts. =0D =0D Example:=0D I think my fuel system is not going to vapor lock.=0D =0D Measure it. Place pressure gage on the fuel inlet to the pump. There is direct correlation of INLET pressure to vapor lock risk. Measure the pressure and compare to other aircraft. If you have unusual aircraft, als= o measure with nose down, nose up.=0D =0D Get a coffee can of fuel. Have one person in your group measure the press= ure change while adjusting the following:=0D Pump temp.=0D head pressure.=0D reduced atmospheric pressure on tank=0D inlet filter=0D Fuel type=0D =0D This info provides perspective as to how significant each is. It can be tested easily with coffee can.=0D The result: the entire group has lower risk because they can measure how close they are to vapor lock when ground testing. =0D =0D =0D -al=0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_1CC0BHK0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Thanks Leon
I couldn't see a good reason not to use them. My plan is to use them= with the Ford sock/screen filter attached, suspending both pumps from th= e header tank lid with a baffle/screen above them to avoid returning fuel= from aerating the fuel at the pickup end.
Georges B.
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 06/12/05 22:= 09:15
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] In Tank EFI Pumps was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: EFI Fuel Systems was Re: [Fl= yRotary] Re: Is common sense dead (rant mode on)
 
Hi Georges,
 
Don't tell me that,  I might get a swelled head = (}:>).
 
Yair,  in-tank pumps are fine. just put 'em= in a nice deep "surge" tank with a false floor (baffle) and a drain=  to separate out any water.   As long as the filtration me= chanism is readily and easily serviceable.  (I just HATE having to r= eplace GMH Holden in-tank pumps though - they require draining the tank,&= nbsp; and irespective,  you can still get your arm pits soaked = in fuel if you are not careful.  Nissan got it right with vertical a= ccess through the boot (trunk) floor.  Really nice.
 
The crucial issue is that if we follow normal proven = auto practice, (of which I know you are a master), we shouldn't= ever have any mechanical EFI problems (computers aside - a different can= of worms). It's only when neophytes try to "improve" on what is kno= wn to be settled technology that strange problems can arise. 
 
I have always been impressed with the utter reli= ability of Bosch & Nippon Denso EFI componentry.  Properly servi= ced,  and supplied with clean, filtered, dry fuel,  everything = seems to last for ten or more years.  The Mazda rotary EFI stuff rar= ely gives problerms unless it cops a load of water or really dirty fuel.&= nbsp; Even then,  normally all that is required is just a filter cha= nge.
 
Cheers mate,
 
Leon 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:50 = AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EFI Fuel = Systems was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Is common sense dead (rant mode on)

 Hi! Leon
You make sense as usual, can you see any reason not to use in- tank = EFI pumps in a header tank instead of external units (I happen to have 4 = in stock).
Georges B.
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 06/12/05 14:= 35:43
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] EFI Fuel Systems was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Is common sense dead (rant mo= de on)
 
Hi Guys,
 
Gotta chime in here. This risk anal= ysis stuff is all very interesting,  but fails to get to the importa= nt points,  based on common sense and practical experience.
 
How the hell can you ever get a vapour l= ock in  an EFI system??    In an EFI system,  the fuel is supposed to ALWAYS be at = a POSITIVE pressure of at least 30 PSI.  At WOT,  that pressure= climbs to 45 PSI.
 
Vapour locks normally occur in a mechani= cal system where a lift pump is "sucking" fuel from the tank and supplyin= g it to a carburettor.  Classic case occurs on a V8 where the fuel w= ill boil in the supply line because of the close proximity of the fuel li= ne to an exhaust header.  Bad initial design,  which can be cor= rected by either re-routing the fuel line,  and / or shielding it an= d insulating it.
 
Further,  the vapour lock can only = occur if the system is at high temp,  and the fuel line is subjected= to a partial vacuum of a lift pump.  So the only place it is possible to get a vapour lock in an EFI syst= em is in the low pressure supply side when using a lift pump.  If yo= u are SILLY enough to have your EFI pump higher than the fuel supply,&nbs= p; you can also get a vapour lock.  EFI pumps are NOT designed to "S= uck" anyway - they are blowers or pushers.
 
Proper fuel system design requires that = at all times,  the lift pump  AND the EFI pump(s) SHOULD A= LWAYS have a head of fuel on them so that they are not required to "= Suck" fuel,  and therefore can't subject the fuel supply line to a p= artial vacuum.
 
The lift pump SHOULD supply what is comm= only known as a "Surge" tank, or a header tank,  or a "make-up" tank= =2E  This tank,  whatever you want to call it,  is used to= supply EFI pump(s) with a positive head of fuel. That is the way the sys= tem MUST be designed.  If you do it any other way,  sooner or l= ater,  it will bite you on the backside.  Guaranteed!
 
There is another possibility in a badly = designed fuel system. AIR lock. Having experienced it myself,  an ai= r lock in the supply line is quite capable of reducing flow in the high p= ressure side of fuel supply.  I won't bore you with specific details= ,  but I have had it happen on more than one occasion.
 
It will normally occur where the fuel li= ne is higher than either the fuel rail or the injector supply.  In s= uch cases,  it is imperative that a bleed nipple is installed to ble= ed out any air.  This will be most evidenty where there is no fuel r= eturn.  My personal opinion is that anybody that runs an EFI system = without a proper fuel return is just asking for it.  A fuel return w= ill assist,  but will not necessarily eliminate an air lock in the f= uel supply.
 
There is a minimum system configuration = complexity in any EFI system,  below which,  if you try to= simplify it any further,  can cause problems under certain conditio= ns.  I KNOW that many current model cas have returnless fuel sustems= ,  but the design is quite complex,  and unless you understand = the differences,  you will not be able to implement such a system.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
<= B>From: al= p wick
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 4:39 P= M
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Is common= sense dead (rant mode on)

 
On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:48:53 -0500 "rijakits" <rijakits@cwpanama.net> writes:
Everyone here is interested in sol= utions, SPECIFIC solutions.
 
 
 
Specifically, Follow this general principal:
When you have a theory, find way to prove it's true. Use facts.
 
Example:
I think my fuel system is not going to vapor lock.
 
Measure it. Place pressure gage on the fuel inlet to the pump. There= is direct correlation of INLET pressure to vapor lock risk. Me= asure the pressure and compare to other aircraft. If you have unusual air= craft, also measure with nose down, nose up.
 
Get a coffee can of fuel. Have one person in your group measure the = pressure change while adjusting the following:
Pump temp.
head pressure.
reduced atmospheric pressure on tank
inlet filter
Fuel type
 
This info provides perspective as to how significant each is. It can= be tested easily with coffee can.
The result: the entire group has lower risk because they can measure= how close they are to vapor lock when ground testing.
 
 
-al
 
 
 
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