Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #23383
From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: coolant leak
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:45:58 -0700
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>


On 6/8/05, al p wick <alwick@juno.com> wrote:
I've got sensors up the wazoo....some on my plane too. I record this info every few milliseconds. Calibrated sensors. So here is what I see.
 
If I want my cooling system to operate at 24 psi, all I have to do is fill my swirl pot to the top with coolant. If I don't want it to see that high pressure, I just leave around a cup of air at the top of swirl pot. With my cup of air, it never exceeds 7 psi. Why? Air is compressible, coolant is not.
When you first fire up engine, pressure is 0, relative to atmosphere. It takes around 8 minutes for pressure to slowly climb to 1 psi. The fluid level starts to rise too. All pressure increase is due to expansion of coolant due to heat. Coolant is not compressible, and can greatly increase force against the contained cooling system.
 
After you shut off your engine, the 7 psi gradually drops over the next few minutes. It only takes around 12 minutes for the system to develop a vacuum relative to atmosphere. At that point the little valve in the radiator cap opens and allows fluid or air to flow into system. (Check out your rad cap, can you find both valves?)
 Logically, from that point on, you can't have a pressurized system. There is no added energy supplied to the system. With one exception: If you have compression leak into cooling system. But even that should have limited duration.
Also, if you had a cooling sys that was normally under pressure, then none of the vehicles would be able to replenish their coolant. They rely on the atmospheric pressure to exceed the coolant pressure 12 minutes after shutdown. That's what forces that liquid in our "overflow" bottle to enter radiator. 
 
I'd double check my  gage calibration if seeing pressure on startup.
 
When I did ground testing with compression leak, this pattern would change. 1 second after full throttle, the pressure would jump to 24 psi, fluid level max out, temperature still cold. This would last for only 5 seconds. This entrained air then had profound effect on the entire cooling sys. I think that was the most interesting part.

-al wick
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5
N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
 
 
 
On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:05:23 -0700 "Al Gietzen" <ALVentures@cox.net> writes:

 

Some of the coolant is going to vaporize.  This pressurises the system.  Some of that vapor will never go back into solution so there should be pressure in the system even when cold. 

 

Dave; this may be the weak link in your logic chain.  Why would some of the vapor not re-condense?  I hope there is some other reason for the pressure.  I'd hate for you to have to tear open the engine.

 

Al Gietzen

 

 
Ah ha, I see the error in my thinking, but it is not what you think. Not all the vapor will go back into liquid because vapor pressure of water is about 1/4 atmosphere (depending on temp of course), same with EG.  Once evaporated they will not go back into liquid form unless the partial pressure of water is higher than that, which can never happen in a closed system.  Although the volume can be quite small.
 
My error in thinking is because most are using closed systems with a standard cap.  No air volume, so there is no need for vapor pressure volume.  As soon as the coolant begins to cool it will have negative pressure and start sucking in coolant.
 
My system starts with about a quart of air in the pressurized expansion can.  This way I have an "air spring" on my coolant and even during cooler periods of flight the pressure in the system will never drop below ambient pressure.  This volume of air must now hold 1/4 atmosphere of coolant vapor pressure in addition the the air that was in there to start, so the pressure never falls even after cooling.
 
If I were getting combustion pressure in my cooling system I think I would be boiling off my coolant PDQ.  But I find that it only drops very slowly, about like in my car.
 
But now I understand how Ed discovered his problem.

--
Dave Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html
http://members.aol.com/vp4skydoc/index.html
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