X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [199.185.220.223] (HELO priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.4) with ESMTP id 984751 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 04 Jun 2005 17:31:02 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=199.185.220.223; envelope-from=echolakeresort@telus.net Received: from boucher-oddle24 ([207.194.127.24]) by priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050604212957.VLZN21662.priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net@boucher-oddle24> for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 15:29:57 -0600 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.323 [267.6.0]); Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:29:56 -0700 Message-Id: <42A21D50.000003.01292@BOUCHER-ODDLE24> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 14:29:52 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time) X-Mailer: IncrediMail (3001609) From: "Echo Lake Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher)" References: To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary risks X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-Priority: 3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-42A21D5468B9=======" --=======AVGMAIL-42A21D5468B9======= Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_S1XKG6G0000000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_S1XKG6G0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ian =0D I'm in the process of adapting an outboard motor alternator attached to = the drive plate, The EC-2 will have a CAS on each half. One will be retarded,= it will be on with the NOS (which has a small computer that increases fuel).= =0D Georges B.=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D Date: 06/04/05 13:30:31=0D To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary risks=0D =0D Hi Georges, I agree with you that there is not much chance that the shaft will break, more likely a problem with the harness going to the CAS. Did you consider using a renesis crank trigger? or perhaps something on the f= lex plate? I assume that you plan on two EC-2s if so get one with 13B code a= nd the other with Renesis code. Have both firing the plugs, turn the second= ary injectors (second EC-2) on if you have a problem with # 1. -- Ian=0D -----Original Message-----=0D From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Echo Lake Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher)=0D Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 3:10 PM=0D To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary risks=0D =0D =0D Dale =0D There are four problems with the "twin dizzy" cover. One there is no room for the water pump housing (you could go to EWP) Two the CAS are not a direct swap with the distributors (can be overcome). Three the cover mounting bolt position are not the same ( only one & can be fixed) & four= if you wand to use oil injection you will need to adapt a 4 port pump, it co= mes with a 2 port with a different mounting pattern. That is the reason I'm using the double decker CAS conversion.=0D Georges B.=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D Date: 06/04/05 08:38:42=0D To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0D Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary risks=0D =0D Al Wick wrote:=0D =0D > Sorry for being so long winded, I have the impression that stuff like=0D > this haven't been discussed before.=0D =0D Actually, most of the application related part has - at=0D various times. A couple of weeks ago, Leon posted pictures=0D of a 12A front cover designed for two distributors - "Twin=0D Dizzies" (apparently also suitable for twin CAS units).=0D There's been discussion of ways to "stack" dual pickups on=0D a single shaft; and some other on adding a CPS/CAS on either=0D the flexplate or on the crank pulley. We've long acknowledged=0D that an *ideal* system would have true redundancy.=0D =0D Then again, is this where our inventive efforts would=0D yield the most value, at this time? So far, it seems that=0D the Mazda CAS is one of the _least_ vulnerable of the engine=0D management components.=0D =0D So far, the most fragile parts of the system have turned=0D out to be the intake and fuel systems. So that is where a=0D lot of attention has been, of late.=0D =0D My $.002 (.02, after 35 years of inflation)=0D =0D Dale R. (___=0D COZY MkIV-R13B #1254 |----=3D=3D(___)=3D=3D----|=0D Ch's 4, 5, 16 & 23 in progress o/ | \o=0D =0D =0D > From: al p wick =0D > Date: 2005/06/04 Sat AM 10:43:11 EDT=0D > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =0D > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary risks=0D >=0D > First, let's try to get a perspective.=0D > There is no job as creative as that of Design Engineer. This guy is=0D > making hundreds of decisions. How many inputs do I need, what size=0D > resistor, how wide should that track be, how do I isolate that from=0D > vibration, etc etc. It's a very very high risk activity. So easy to=0D > overlook something. Many of the decisions are arbitrary. You are just=0D > making your best guess.=0D >=0D > The Japanese produce superior products. When we analyzed their success = 30=0D > years ago, we found they used certain tools in the design and validatio= n=0D > phase that U.S. designers didn't. One of these is the FMEA (see web=0D > site). They get a group of engineers together and say" Ok, this is our=0D > best guess on how it should be designed, what's going to fail?". They g= o=0D > thru each characteristic and rate them for risk. Then they find a way t= o=0D > prove how far from failure each of those items are.=0D > For example, they'll say"Ok, the alternator is going to fail. This will= =0D > produce an ac voltage." So then they measure how large the ac voltage c= an=0D > get before the device dies. Then they take action if there is not a lar= ge=0D > safety margin, retest. They end up with numbers that measure their safe= ty=0D > margin.=0D >=0D > So I would encourage reviewing all the various failure modes of the ECM= =2E=0D > Deliberately subject it to experiences beyond what it will normally see= =2E=0D > Unplug each sensor, see how it handles it. Apply heat way beyond normal= ,=0D > apply vibrations beyond normal. There are very simple ways to do this. = It=0D > doesn't have to be some long drawn out thing.=0D >=0D > However, statistically, we know if you have true redundancy in this=0D > particular device, then you get to multiply the probability of failure.= =0D > So if the probability of shut down is 1 time in 1000 hours, since we ha= ve=0D > two with independent probabilities, our odds plummet to 1 time in 1=0D > million hours. So all you need are two independent circuits.=0D > When in doubt, just take a look at what the auto designers have done.=0D > They use more than one sensor to measure each characteristic. They=0D > compare the sensor results to historical data. They instantly recognize= =0D > the sensor is providing false data, then warn you, and use tables or=0D > other sensor to keep you plugging along. That's why you don't see=0D > vehicles sitting on the side of the road.=0D >=0D > Sorry for being so long winded, I have the impression that stuff like=0D > this haven't been discussed before.=0D >=0D >=0D > -al wick=0D > Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Subaru 2.5= =0D > N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon=0D > Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel design inf= o:=0D > http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html=0D >=0D =0D =0D =0D >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=0D >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html=0D =0D =0D --=0D No virus found in this incoming message.=0D Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.=0D Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.0 - Release Date: 6/3/2005=0D =0D =2E=0D =0D =0D =0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_S1XKG6G0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ian 
I'm  in the process of adapting an outboard motor alternator at= tached to the drive plate, The EC-2 will have a CAS on each half. One wil= l be retarded, it will be on with the NOS (which has a small computer tha= t increases fuel).
Georges B.
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 06/04/05 13:= 30:31
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] Re: Rotary risks
 
Hi Georges, I agree with you that t= here is not much chance that the shaft will break, more likely a problem = with the harness going to the CAS.  Did you consider using a renesis= crank trigger? or perhaps something on the flex plate?  I assume th= at you plan on two EC-2s if so get one with 13B code and the other with R= enesis code.  Have both firing the plugs, turn the secondary injecto= rs (second EC-2) on if you have a problem with # 1. -- Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Echo Lak= e Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher)
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 200= 5 3:10 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [Fly= Rotary] Re: Rotary risks

Dale 
There are four problems with the "twin dizzy" cover. One there = is no room for the water pump housing (you could go to EWP) Two the = CAS are not a direct swap with the distributors (can be overcome). Three = the cover mounting bolt position are not the same ( only one & can be= fixed) & four if you wand to use oil injection you will need to adap= t a 4 port pump, it comes with a 2 port with a different mounting pattern= =2E That is the reason I'm using the double decker CAS conversion.
Georges B.
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 06/04/05 08:= 38:42
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] Re: Rotary risks
 
Al Wick <alwick@juno.com&g= t; wrote:
 
> Sorry for being so long winded, I have the impression that stuf= f like
> this haven't been discussed before.
 
   Actually, most of the application related part has - at=
various times.  A couple of weeks ago, Leon posted picture= s
of a 12A front cover designed for two distributors - "Twin
Dizzies" (apparently also suitable for twin CAS units).
There's been discussion of ways to "stack" dual pickups on
a single shaft; and some other on adding a CPS/CAS on either
the flexplate or on the crank pulley.  We've long acknowle= dged
that an *ideal* system would have true redundancy.
 
   Then again, is this where our inventive efforts would
yield the most value, at this time?  So far, it seems that=
the Mazda CAS is one of the _least_ vulnerable of the engine
management components.
 
   So far, the most fragile parts of the system have turne= d
out to be the intake and fuel systems.  So that is where a=
lot of attention has been, of late.
 
My $.002 (.02, after 35 years of inflation)
 
Dale R.          &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;       (___
COZY MkIV-R13B #1254        =   |----=3D=3D(___)=3D=3D----|
Ch's 4, 5, 16 & 23 in progress     &nbs= p;o/ | \o
 
 
> From: al p wick <alwick@j= uno.com>
> Date: 2005/06/04 Sat AM 10:43:11 EDT
> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary risks
>
> First, let's try to get a perspective.
> There is no job as creative as that of Design Engineer. This gu= y is
> making hundreds of decisions. How many inputs do I need, what s= ize
> resistor, how wide should that track be, how do I isolate that = from
> vibration, etc etc. It's a very very high risk activity. So eas= y to
> overlook something. Many of the decisions are arbitrary. You ar= e just
> making your best guess.
>
> The Japanese produce superior products. When we analyzed their = success 30
> years ago, we found they used certain tools in the design and v= alidation
> phase that U.S. designers didn't. One of these is the FMEA (see= web
> site). They get a group of engineers together and say" Ok, this= is our
> best guess on how it should be designed, what's going to fail?"= =2E They go
> thru each characteristic and rate them for risk. Then they find= a way to
> prove how far from failure each of those items are.
> For example, they'll say"Ok, the alternator is going to fail. T= his will
> produce an ac voltage." So then they measure how large the ac v= oltage can
> get before the device dies. Then they take action if there is n= ot a large
> safety margin, retest. They end up with numbers that measure th= eir safety
> margin.
>
> So I would encourage reviewing all the various failure modes of= the ECM.
> Deliberately subject it to experiences beyond what it will norm= ally see.
> Unplug each sensor, see how it handles it. Apply heat way beyon= d normal,
> apply vibrations beyond normal. There are very simple ways to d= o this. It
> doesn't have to be some long drawn out thing.
>
> However, statistically, we know if you have true redundancy in = this
> particular device, then you get to multiply the probability of = failure.
> So if the probability of shut down is 1 time in 1000 hours, sin= ce we have
> two with independent probabilities, our odds plummet to 1 time = in 1
> million hours. So all you need are two independent circuits.
> When in doubt, just take a look at what the auto designers have= done.
> They use more than one sensor to measure each characteristic. T= hey
> compare the sensor results to historical data. They instantly r= ecognize
> the sensor is providing false data, then warn you, and use tabl= es or
> other sensor to keep you plugging along. That's why you don't s= ee
> vehicles sitting on the side of the road.
>
> Sorry for being so long winded, I have the impression that stuf= f like
> this haven't been discussed before.
>
>
> -al wick
> Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by stock Su= baru 2.5
> N9032U 200+ hours on engine/airframe from Portland, Oregon
> Prop construct, Subaru install, Risk assessment, Glass panel de= sign info:
>
 
 
 
 
 
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