X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.100] (HELO ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c5) with ESMTP id 951141 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:05:40 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.100; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-065-188-083-049.carolina.res.rr.com [65.188.83.49]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j4KH4pLw027682 for ; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002301c55d5e$0e7736d0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Sized 13b Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:04:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C55D3C.8735FB50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C55D3C.8735FB50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, that was Andy (forget his last name). You need understand his = lubrication system configuration which was plugs-up as is mine. No one = else with Plugs Up has had that problem that I am aware of. Two things about his set up doomed it from my view point. =20 1. He had approx 18-24" of distance between his pump pickup and the = bottom of his sum - clearly a long way uphill if the pump had drained = and was not primed. He told me that it often took over a minute for the = oil pressure to come up. 2. Instead of using a metal tube, he used a rubber hose. Any small air = leak in a hose and the pump will suck air rather than heavy oil. The = day his engine seized, he had been making numerous take offs for Young = Eagles, stopping the engine each time to let the on and off board. Then = restarting the engine each time probably with inadequate oil pressure - = it eventually caught up with him. Given that combination, it is clear that Andy had numerous starts with = little/no oil pressure for a long period of time, not surprising that = the bearings finally wore out without adequate lubrication. I would not = completely agree with Dave - Plugs Up itself was not the problem, = inadequate understanding or attention to the details of lubrication = subsystem was the problem. =20 Dave now uses one of powersports spur gear PSRUs, the one that weights = 65 lbs and cost $6500. He apparently went through several Ross drives = and having gone through one myself I can understand - although not agree = - with his views concerning the planetary drive. Simply a less than = adequate design as embodied in the Ross drive. Tracy's drive is a = different breed of cat altogether. FWIW Ed A ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Echo Lake Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher)=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 12:12 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Sized 13b Group FWIW I had heard of a Christavia Mk IV that had a 13B with plugs up = that "sized up". I tracked him down & phoned him, he told me that the = engine sized while taxing for take off. I asked him what the problem was = he told me that he didn't know, he said that he sent the engine back to = Atkins. I sent Atkins an email to enquire about the reason for the = seizure. To my surprise at 7:30 this morning Atkins phoned me, he said that the engine was mounted "plugs up" with a home made = dry sump system that allowed the engine to run without oil pressure on = start up until the system primed itself. The results was that all the = bearings in the engine were "wiped out" completely (didn't size up = really just stopped). Atkins claims the plugs up added to the problem. = He said he no longer uses "planetary "gear reduction drive & that he = uses Castrol 20/50 instead of synthetic also said he had a customer with = over 2000 hrs, He mumbled something when I mentioned Tracy's 1450 hours = but I didn't get what it was. I guess he called me to avoid speculation = that the engine failure was a result of his workmanship. I asked him = about engine balancing, he said they do "static" balancing in house = (what ever that means). so it seems like this was "builder error" He ran = it for over 200hrs, replaced it with a220hp Franklin 6 cyl. & is as = happy with the change as " a pig in s..." Thought you might be interested. Georges B.=20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.13 - Release Date: 5/19/2005 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C55D3C.8735FB50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, that was Andy (forget his last name).  You need=20  understand his lubrication system configuration which was plugs-up = as is=20 mine. No one else with Plugs Up has had that problem that I am = aware=20 of.
 
 Two things about his set up doomed it from my view = point. =20
 
1.  He had approx 18-24" of distance between his pump pickup = and the=20 bottom of his sum - clearly a long way uphill if the pump had drained = and was=20 not primed.  He told me that it often took over a minute for the = oil=20 pressure to come up.
 
2.  Instead of using a metal tube, he used a rubber = hose.  Any=20 small air leak in a hose and the pump will suck air rather than heavy = oil. =20 The day his engine seized, he had been making numerous take offs for = Young=20 Eagles, stopping the engine each time to let the on and off board.  = Then=20 restarting the engine each time probably with inadequate oil pressure - = it=20 eventually caught up with him.
 
Given that combination, it is clear that Andy had numerous starts = with=20 little/no oil pressure for a long period of time, not surprising that = the=20 bearings finally wore out without adequate lubrication.  I would = not=20 completely  agree with Dave - Plugs Up itself was not the = problem, =20 inadequate understanding or attention to the details of lubrication = subsystem was the problem. 
 
 Dave now uses one of powersports spur gear PSRUs, the one = that=20 weights 65 lbs and cost $6500.  He apparently went through several = Ross=20 drives and having gone through one myself I can understand - although = not agree=20 - with his views concerning the planetary drive. Simply a less than = adequate=20 design as embodied in the Ross drive.  Tracy's drive is a = different=20 breed of cat altogether.
 
FWIW
 
Ed A
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Echo=20 Lake Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher)
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 = 12:12 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Sized = 13b

Group FWIW
I had heard of a Christavia Mk IV that had a 13B with plugs = up that=20 "sized up". I tracked him down & phoned him, he told me that = the=20 engine sized while taxing for take off. I asked him what the = problem was=20 he told me that he didn't know, he said that he sent the engine = back to=20 Atkins. I sent Atkins an email to enquire about the reason for = the=20 seizure. To my surprise at 7:30 this morning Atkins phoned = me,
he said that the engine was mounted "plugs up" with a home = made dry=20 sump system that allowed the engine to run without oil pressure = on start=20 up until the system primed itself. The results was that all the = bearings=20 in the engine were "wiped out" completely (didn't size up really = just=20 stopped). Atkins claims the plugs up added to the problem. He = said he no=20 longer uses "planetary "gear reduction drive & that he uses = Castrol=20 20/50 instead of synthetic also said he had a customer with over = 2000=20 hrs, He mumbled something when I mentioned Tracy's 1450 hours = but I=20 didn't get what it was. I guess he called me to avoid = speculation that=20 the engine failure was a result of his workmanship. I asked him = about=20 engine balancing, he said they do "static" balancing in house = (what ever=20 that means). so it seems like this was "builder error" He ran it = for=20 over 200hrs, replaced it with a220hp Franklin 6 cyl. & is as = happy=20 with the change as " a pig in s..."
Thought you might be interested.
Georges B.

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG=20 Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.13 - Release = Date:=20 5/19/2005

>>  Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>  Archive:  =20 = http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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