X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from smtp807.mail.sc5.yahoo.com ([66.163.168.186] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c5) with SMTP id 938094 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 09 May 2005 19:22:41 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.163.168.186; envelope-from=dcarter@datarecall.net Received: from unknown (HELO Davidscmptr) (dcarter11@sbcglobal.net@66.138.56.210 with login) by smtp807.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 May 2005 23:21:53 -0000 Message-ID: <05bd01c554ed$de1927a0$6401a8c0@ip.net> Reply-To: "David Carter" From: "David Carter" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: To Lynn Hanover re: windage trays Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 18:21:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05BA_01C554C3.F4721400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_05BA_01C554C3.F4721400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry, I noticed a "paper clip" on your e-mail so clicked it - assumed = it would be a .jpg picture of the pan. When I clicked "save attachment" = I got warning "Trying to save a file with .dat extension". I didn't = open or save it. Any chance it is a virus attachment? David ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jerry Hey=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 3:36 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: To Lynn Hanover re: windage trays On Friday, May 6, 2005, at 09:07 PM, Lehanover@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 05/06/2005 06:44 Central Daylight Time, = jerryhey@earthlink.net writes: Lynn, I would appreciate your advice. I am starting out to build wedge oil pans and wonder about the advisability of having a windage tray at all since they are not used stock 13-B or Renesis. The Renesis oil pan has a sub floor about .75 inches above the actual real bottom where oil can be trapped and presumably de-frothed. This might only be necessary because the pan is so shallow. I don't know and am looking forward to hearing your comments. The wedge oil pans would be much deeper toward rear and that is where I hope to place the pick up. Thanks, Jerry =20 The primary reason for the windage tray in rotary racing with the = internal pump, is to keep the entire oil supply from filling up the = front cover and uncovering the pickup under hard braking.=20 =20 I have thought about the problem of keeping the pickup covered during = climb and descent. How much of a climb angle would be tolerated before a problem = develops. Riding down to Sun&Fun in the Bonanza I decided the angles = involved were just too shallow to be a factor. =20 That only leaves the defoaming as a benefit. We were racing without a = tray for years before adding one. During a race (40 minutes) the oil = pressure would drop from 85-90 PSI to 70 PSI. =20 Some of that from oil temps going up, and some from oil foaming. We = were putting it up into the front cover under braking and foaming the = crap out of it with the front counter weight. This is with a stock pan = with a quart of oil extra added. =20 A conical shaped pan with the pickup at the inverted apex would seem = close to the ideal if you maintain the internal pump. If you want the = tray for defoaming I would suggest a flat plate with a 5/8" gap around = the edges the full size of the pan. Or try the deep pan without any tray = at all. If you don't use steep climb angles the oil will stay off of the = front counter weight and little foaming will occur. Most foaming in the = straight line is cooling oil from the rotors, and that exits at an angle = before it gets to the pan and is just below the breather port. =20 Lynn E. Hanover=20 Thanks Lynn, I always learn a lot from your comments. Consider a tractor = config climbing vertically. If a windage tray covered the back 1/3 of = the pan, the pick up would probably remained covered and little oil = would be able to enter the front cover. As you said, at more normal = angles, it would not be a problem with or without the tray. Those = engines using Tracy's old pan plate and also the CC pan plate are in the = windage tray plus stock pan category. No problems have ever been = mentioned as far as I know. Considering the Wedge pan, the way I built mine was to first make a .125 = thick aluminum windage tray that I used as a foundation to weld up the = pan. Thus the tray and pan became a single unit. The problem I have = experienced with this is that it is difficult when installing the pan to = feed it over the pick up tube. I think it would be better after welding = up the pan to completely cut out the center of the tray leaving only the = bolt flange very similar to the stock pan. A separate windage tray, = quite thin, could be added if desired.=20 The wedge oil pan is Paul Lamar's idea. For those unfamiliar with it, it = is intended to save space under the engine for the belly radiator and = plenum. I modified the pan shape to make it deepest at the pick up tube. = Perhaps I should have moved the pick up to the rear of he pan instead. I = would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this. BTW, the wedge pan capacity = as I built it is the same as the stock pan and the full length wedge is = a little larger. Jerry -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_05BA_01C554C3.F4721400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jerry, I noticed a "paper clip" on your = e-mail so=20 clicked it - assumed it would be a .jpg picture of the pan.  When I = clicked=20 "save attachment" I got warning "Trying to save a file with .dat=20 extension".    I didn't open or save it.  Any chance = it is a=20 virus attachment?
 
David
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jerry Hey=20
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 3:36 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: To Lynn Hanover re: windage=20 trays


On Friday, May 6, 2005, at 09:07 PM, Lehanover@aol.com wrote:

In=20 a message dated 05/06/2005 06:44 Central Daylight Time, jerryhey@earthlink.net=20 writes:

Lynn, I would appreciate your advice.  I am = starting out=20 to build
wedge oil pans and wonder about the advisability of having = a=20 windage
tray at all since they are not used stock 13-B or=20 Renesis.   The
Renesis oil pan has a sub floor about .75 = inches=20 above the actual real
bottom where oil can be trapped and = presumably=20 de-frothed.   This
might only be necessary because the = pan is so=20 shallow.  I don't know
and am looking forward to hearing your=20 comments.   The wedge oil pans
would be much deeper = toward rear=20 and that is where I hope to place the
pick up.    = Thanks, =20 Jerry


 
The primary reason for the windage tray in = rotary=20 racing with the internal pump, is to keep the entire oil supply from = filling=20 up the front cover and uncovering the pickup under hard=20 braking. 
 
I have thought about the problem of = keeping the=20 pickup covered during climb and descent.
How much of a climb angle = would be=20 tolerated before a problem develops. Riding down to Sun&Fun in the = Bonanza=20 I decided the angles involved were just too shallow to be a=20 factor.
 
That only leaves the defoaming as a benefit. We = were=20 racing without a tray for years before adding one. During a race (40 = minutes)=20 the oil pressure would drop from 85-90 PSI to 70 = PSI.
 
Some of=20 that from oil temps going up, and some from oil foaming. We were = putting it up=20 into the front cover under braking and foaming the crap out of it with = the=20 front counter weight. This is with a stock pan with a quart of oil = extra=20 added.
 
A conical shaped pan with the pickup at the = inverted apex=20 would seem close to the ideal if you maintain the internal pump. If = you want=20 the tray for defoaming I would suggest a flat plate with a 5/8" gap = around the=20 edges the full size of the pan. Or try the deep pan without any tray = at all.=20 If you don't use steep climb angles the oil will stay off of the=20 front counter weight and little foaming will occur. Most = foaming in=20 the straight line is cooling oil from the rotors, and that exits at an = angle=20 before it gets to the pan and is just below the breather=20 port.
 
Lynn E.=20 Hanover 

Thank= s Lynn,=20 I always learn a lot from your comments. Consider a tractor config = climbing=20 vertically. If a windage tray covered the back 1/3 of the pan, the pick = up would=20 probably remained covered and little oil would be able to enter the = front cover.=20 As you said, at more normal angles, it would not be a problem with or = without=20 the tray. Those engines using Tracy's old pan plate and also the CC pan = plate=20 are in the windage tray plus stock pan category. No problems have ever = been=20 mentioned as far as I know.

Considering the Wedge pan, the way I = built=20 mine was to first make a .125 thick aluminum windage tray that I used as = a=20 foundation to weld up the pan. Thus the tray and pan became a single = unit. The=20 problem I have experienced with this is that it is difficult when = installing the=20 pan to feed it over the pick up tube. I think it would be better after = welding=20 up the pan to completely cut out the center of the tray leaving only the = bolt=20 flange very similar to the stock pan. A separate windage tray, quite = thin, could=20 be added if desired.

The wedge oil pan is Paul Lamar's idea. For = those=20 unfamiliar with it, it is intended to save space under the engine for = the belly=20 radiator and plenum. I modified the pan shape to make it deepest at the = pick up=20 tube. Perhaps I should have moved the pick up to the rear of he pan = instead. I=20 would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this. BTW, the wedge pan capacity = as I=20 built it is the same as the stock pan and the full length wedge is a = little=20 larger. Jerry



 

>>  Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>  Archive:  =20 http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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