X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.4.51.76] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c5) with ESMTP id 913884 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:40:03 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.4.51.76; envelope-from=lors01@msn.com Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:39:17 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 64.4.51.200 by BAY107-DAV4.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:39:16 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [64.4.51.200] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Apex Slot Wear/ Grinding for 3mm Seals Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:39:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0131_01C5498B.67C34760" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0011.1703 Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:39:14 -0400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Apr 2005 15:39:17.0331 (UTC) FILETIME=[F0D04230:01C549AC] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0131_01C5498B.67C34760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know for sure what happened with Ed's seals but offer this = observation FWIW. Although the RWS seals developed with Bruce are harder than the Hurley = seals, that is not the factor that I think is most significant here. It = is the resistance to fracture that matters. =20 It's hard to put numbers to this but it is very clear when you take one = of each in hand and snap them in two. Unless you are a lot stronger = than me, you can't break the RWS seals with bare hands but I can easily = break Hurleys. I'll bring samples of each to Charlie's fly-in on = Memorial day weekend for demos. Nothing is immune to failure of course. We recently had an irate = customer (drag racer) who was upset that the seals bent down in the = center during detonation at high boost (> 30 psi). The seal was forced = down into the groove so hard that the spring stops on the two ends = bottomed out and the seal sagged in the center. This caused the engine = to have low compression but no damage to the rotors or rotor housings. = He said this bending never happened with Hurleys. I'm sure it doesn't = because Hurleys would be in many pieces under the same conditions. = Which would you rather have happen? His answer was neither. = Sigh........ Tracy Lynn, The current question seems to be the hardness of the "Hurley" seals = that failed in Ed Anderson's 13B relative to "Tracy's" seals or even stock = seals.....Also the wear of his apex slot seems to be a factor........Correct me if I am = wrong but I believe your 12A engines use 3mm carbon racing seals........If this is so I = would presume they are much softer than stock seals.........How much racing at = 8-9000 rpm do you get out of them and where are the wear patterns located........seal = surface,side etc ? Thanks, -- Kelly Troyer=20 Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2=20 Lehanover@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 04/24/2005 02:53 Central Daylight Time,=20 finn.lassen@verizon.net writes: << Ok, so grooves don't wear in your application (car racing) with = proper=20 lubrication and air filtering. =20 What HP range would you estimate your engines spend 90% of their time = in? =20 Finn >> We record and review each session on a video camera that watches a = special=20 set of gages. I show the driver where he has dropped off of the power = and he=20 complains about having to shift up here or down there and so on. We may = then=20 change rear end ratios to get him out of a shift in a fast turn or such. = He is attempting to stay above 8,000 RPM. Max power is at 9,400 RPM and=20 shifts are at 9,600 RPM.=20 HP at 8,000 is 223 to 225. Max power is 244 to 245 HP at 9,400 RPM. Lynn E. Hanover =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0131_01C5498B.67C34760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't know for sure what happened with Ed's seals but offer this=20 observation FWIW.
 
Although the RWS seals developed with Bruce are harder than the = Hurley=20 seals, that is not the factor that I think is most significant = here.  It is=20 the resistance to fracture that matters. 
 
It's hard to put numbers to this but it is very clear when you take = one of=20 each in hand and snap them in two.  Unless you are a lot stronger = than me,=20 you can't break the RWS seals with bare hands but I can = easily break=20 Hurleys.  I'll bring samples of each to Charlie's fly-in on = Memorial day=20 weekend for demos.
 
Nothing is immune to failure of course.  We recently had an = irate=20 customer (drag racer) who was upset that the seals bent down in the = center=20 during detonation at high boost (> 30 psi).  The seal was forced = down=20 into the groove so hard that the spring stops on the two = ends bottomed=20 out and the seal sagged in the center.  This caused the engine to = have low=20 compression but no damage to the rotors or rotor housings.  He said = this=20 bending never happened with Hurleys.  I'm sure=20 it doesn't because Hurleys would be in many pieces under the = same=20 conditions.   Which would you rather have happen?   = His=20 answer was neither.   Sigh........
 
Tracy

Lynn,
  The current question seems to be the hardness of the = "Hurley"=20 seals that failed
in Ed Anderson's 13B relative to "Tracy's" seals or even stock=20 seals.....Also the
wear of his apex slot seems to be a factor........Correct me if I = am=20 wrong but I believe
your 12A engines use 3mm carbon racing seals........If this is so = I would=20 presume
they are much softer than stock seals.........How much racing at = 8-9000=20 rpm do you
get out of them and where are the wear patterns = located........seal=20 surface,side etc ?
 
Thanks,
--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke=20 Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2

Lehanover@aol.com = wrote:
In a message dated 04/24/2005 02:53 Central Daylight Time,=20
finn.lassen@verizon.net =
writes:

<< Ok, so grooves don't wear in your application (car racing) with =
proper=20
 lubrication and air filtering.
=20
 What HP range would you estimate your engines spend 90% of their time =
in?
=20
 Finn
  >>


We record and review each session on a video camera that watches a =
special=20
set of gages. I show the driver where he has dropped off of the power =
and he=20
complains about having to shift up here or down there and so on. We may =
then=20
change rear end ratios to get him out of a shift in a fast turn or such. =


He is attempting to stay above 8,000 RPM. Max power is at 9,400 RPM and=20
shifts are at 9,600 RPM.=20

HP at 8,000 is 223 to 225. Max power is 244 to 245 HP at 9,400 RPM.

Lynn E. Hanover

  
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