X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.102] (HELO ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c5) with ESMTP id 911928 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:55:42 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.102; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-185-127.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.185.127]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j3N1stY5013638 for ; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000701c547a7$77a500a0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: All Parts have arrived, Whew! Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:55:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C54785.F057B730" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C54785.F057B730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, George, I would not take the conclusion that far. We have folks = flying with several hundred more hours than I have with no apex seal = failures. In fact to the best of my knowledge, I am the only one I am = aware of other than Chuck Dunlap who's rotary engine swallowed a 1/4" = dia steel bolt (it was retained - so we know) to have an apex seal = failure in an aircraft. However, I do believe that folks need to be = more aware of the true condition of their used engine components - I = know all probably did was look at it and not seeing any obviously = defects or dings said - "good to go!" =20 As you know, Leon is convinced my apex seal failure was also due to = foreign object ingestion - I certainly can not prove it was something = else (like the apex seal slop) although I don't believe a foreign = object to be the case - belief is not a fact {:>).=20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Lendich=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 9:44 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: All Parts have arrived, Whew! Ed, Good thinking and good to get the feed-back. I do believe we are starting to see a trend, in regard to apex seal = slot wear. I believe the problem is that it's starting to give the = rotary, for Aviation use, a bad name, and it's the sort of thing that = could easily do it. When you think about it, too much slop is going to aggravate the apex = seal side wear, which could have resulted in those chatter marks. George ( down under) George, the rotor housings had some wear - but no gouges or groves, = no missing chrome - so they were probably OK to reuse again. However, = there was what appeared to be "chatter" wear - strips across the chrome = at regular intervals. When you rubbed your fingers along them I could = detect a faint wave like pattern (valleys and peaks). So decided with = new rotors and seals to go with new rotor housings. Those were used = ones and who knows how many miles they might have had. =20 Well, I was quite surprised at the amount of wear on the seals - = they were brand new 150 hours ago but the seals were badly grooved and = worn - now I am certain that wear was greatly accelerated by the poor = condition of the seal slots - but still. In any case, new stronger = seals are going to be used next - as well as additional of an air = filter. I personally don't think an airfilter would have made any = difference in the apex seal breaking - but, I also noticed that the = rotor metal oil rings were worn outside the specs and they were new 150 = hours ago. So I do believe I have had some accelerated wear due to the = dust in and around my hangar over the past two years. Since a filter is = cheap, I'm going to stick one on. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Lendich=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 6:23 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: All Parts have arrived, Whew! Ed, Were the old housing junked because you spat the apex seals? I just got a report that one bloke in Victoria Aust is only = getting 200 hrs out of new seals before they break - I wonder if it's = the same problem? I'm pretty sure it is! George ( down under) Ok, folks, the fun begins. Got the last of the parts in today, = so can start the assembly tomorrow. Waited for UPS to deliver the oil = control rings all day - so was down in the dumps when 1600 rolled around = and no UPS truck. So maundered down to the mail box and their wedged = into its opening was a USPS package - not UPS!=20 Going to sit down tonight with a bowl of pop corn and watch = Bruce T perform the assembly part. I noticed that the transcript did = not have anything on the reassembly - so assume that I either got tired = of listening to Bruce, figured that the assembly was just the reverse of = the disassembly - or lost that part. Got all the rotor parts in plastic sandwich bags marked for = which rotor, which side of rotor and which apex. For most parts it = really doesn't matter but, for instance, is very important when = replacing the oil control seals to put the springs back correctly = according to direction of rotation and side of the rotor. Also = important on the side seals to get them in the right slot or else all = that work trimming the side seals to get that precision fit is lost. First time I've actually had new rotors and housings - I like = the looks - though not necessarily what they cost. But, Bruce gave the = best price out of three quotes I got. Just wanted you to know. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C54785.F057B730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, George, I would not =  take the=20 conclusion that far.  We have folks flying with several hundred = more hours=20 than I have with no apex seal failures.  In fact to the best of my=20 knowledge, I am the only one I am aware of other than Chuck Dunlap who's = rotary=20 engine swallowed a 1/4" dia steel bolt (it was retained - so we know) to = have an=20 apex seal failure in an aircraft.  However, I do believe that folks = need to=20 be more aware of the true condition of their used engine components - I = know all=20 probably did was look at it and not seeing any obviously defects or = dings said -=20 "good to go!"
 
As you know, Leon is = convinced my apex=20 seal failure was also due to foreign object ingestion - I certainly can=20 not prove it was something else (like the apex seal slop)  = although I=20 don't believe a foreign object  to be the case - belief is not = a fact=20 {:>). 
 
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 George=20 Lendich
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 = 9:44=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: All = Parts have=20 arrived, Whew!

Ed,
Good thinking and good to get the=20 feed-back.
I do believe we are starting to see a = trend, in=20 regard to apex seal slot wear. I believe the problem is that it's = starting to give the rotary, for Aviation use, a bad name, and it's = the sort=20 of thing that could easily do it.
When you think about it, too much = slop is going=20 to aggravate the apex seal side wear, which could have = resulted in=20 those chatter marks.
George ( down under)
George, the rotor housings had some = wear - but=20 no gouges or groves, no missing chrome - so they were probably OK to = reuse=20 again.  However, there was what appeared to be "chatter" wear - = strips=20 across the chrome at regular intervals.  When you rubbed your = fingers=20 along them I could detect a faint wave like pattern (valleys and=20 peaks).  So decided with new rotors and seals to go with new = rotor=20 housings.  Those were used ones and who knows how many miles = they might=20 have had. 
 
Well, I was quite surprised at the = amount of=20 wear on the seals -  they were brand new 150 hours ago but the = seals=20 were badly grooved and worn - now I am certain that wear was greatly = accelerated by the poor condition of the seal slots - but = still.  In=20 any case, new stronger seals are going to be used next - as well as=20 additional of an air filter.  I personally don't think an = airfilter=20 would have made any difference in the apex seal breaking - but, I = also=20 noticed that the rotor metal oil rings were worn outside the specs = and they=20 were new 150 hours ago.  So I do believe I have had some = accelerated=20 wear due to the dust in and around my hangar over the past two = years. =20 Since a filter is cheap, I'm going to stick one on.
 
Ed
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 George Lendich
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, April 22, = 2005 6:23=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = All Parts=20 have arrived, Whew!

Ed,
Were the old housing junked = because you spat=20 the apex seals?
 
I just got a report that one = bloke in=20 Victoria Aust is only getting 200 hrs out of new seals before they = break -=20 I wonder if it's the same problem? I'm pretty sure it=20 is!
 
George ( down under)
Ok, folks, the fun = begins.  Got the=20 last of the parts in today, so can start the assembly=20 tomorrow. Waited for UPS to deliver the oil control rings = all day=20 - so was down in the dumps when 1600 rolled around and = no UPS=20 truck.  So maundered down to the mail box and = their wedged=20 into its opening was a USPS package - not = UPS! 
 
Going to sit down tonight with = a bowl of=20 pop corn and watch Bruce T perform the assembly = part.   I=20 noticed that the transcript did not have anything on the = reassembly - so=20 assume that I either got tired of listening to Bruce, figured = that the=20 assembly was just the reverse of the disassembly - or lost that=20 part.
 
Got all the rotor parts in = plastic sandwich=20 bags marked for which rotor, which side of rotor and which = apex. =20 For most parts it really doesn't matter but, for instance, is = very=20 important when replacing the oil control seals to put the = springs back=20 correctly according to direction of rotation and side of the=20 rotor.  Also important on the side seals to get them in the = right=20 slot or else all that work trimming the side seals to get that = precision=20 fit is lost.
 
First time I've actually had = new rotors and=20 housings - I like the looks - though not necessarily what = they=20 cost. But,  Bruce gave the best price out of three = quotes I=20 got.  Just wanted you to know.
 
Ed
 
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW = Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
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