Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.102] (HELO ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c3) with ESMTP id 881770 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 07:48:10 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.102; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-185-127.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.185.127]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j3IBlIY5021021 for ; Mon, 18 Apr 2005 07:47:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <004401c5440c$6054e580$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Apex Seal Groove Wear Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 07:47:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0041_01C543EA.D9055220" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C543EA.D9055220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Georges, I am waiting on two brand new 9.7:1 rotors to appear on my door step = this week. I will measure the slots at top and bottom and expect them = to be the same. Will report the results. I measured 1.98 mm at the = bottom of the slot on the old rotors - where I suspect there would be = less wear. But your slots appear to have more wear than mine at the = top. Myreadings ranged from 2.16 to 2.26 mm at the top of the slot.=20 Somewhere ( far away and along time ago), I recall reading that if the = slots get too worn the smooth top of the apex seal that should rub = against the housing gets cocked over too far and a rather sharper edge = start to rub. This and the angle increases drag forces on the seal - = particularly in the center region - also the seal may start to chatter = and you can see marks on the housing as periodically spaced burnish = marks across the rotor housing chrome face (my rotor housings have those = marks - can actually feel a faint wave pattern (valley and peaks in the = housing surface). When the drag forces reach some point the apex seal = breaks - once it breaks its only a matter of time before the pieces = leave the slot. =20 Ed A ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Echo Lake Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher)=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 10:57 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Apex Seal Groove Wear Hi! Kelly I must of mist Lynn's VST system, I don't understand what those = measurements are. I opened another 91 13b NA today & to my dismay it = was toast (supposably a Mazda rebuilt in '99) I measured at 90deg. to the apex slots with a digital vernier = caliper the reading I got on this one were from 2.26 to 2.43 mm the new = 2mm seal is 1.91 to 1.94 wide, the max allowable clearance is 0.1mm = therefore in this case the widest width should be 1.04mm so this slot = has 0.39 mm excess wear at the slot opening. Has anyone actually = measured a new rotor? I guess I will buy 2 new rotors now Georges=20 -------Original Message------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft Date: 04/17/05 15:33:47 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Apex Seal Groove Wear Georges, Have you tried Lynn's VST (Vertical Seal Test) for apex slot = wear and if so=20 what measurement did you get ? Lynn suggests that 3/16 inch = (.1875 inch) or 4.7625 mm as the outer limit........Of course after all the = posts on this subject everyone may have their own personal limit !! -- Kelly Troyer=20 Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2=20 -------------- Original message from "Echo Lake Fishing Resort = (Georges Boucher)" : --------------=20 Hi! Leon You have a point regarding air filter use on water, when = Mt St Helen (Washington state) erupted the first time I had a shop in = Vancouver BC Canada (about 300miles away) even at that distance, one of = the fleets of vehicle that we serviced had to have the air filters = replaced every second day( even a week the eruption). I made the crack about no need for an air filter for a = float plane in Canada, but actually much of the time float planes are = started on the lake shores with the engine above the ground instead of = the water. The other thing about air filters on an airplane, an = alternate air source (like a slightly spring loaded flat) should be = supplied ( in a float plane case , water could splash onto the element & = freeze solid at altitude, blocking air to the intake). On the rotor apex = seal subject, I agree with you regarding the amount of wear on the rotor = seal slot & seal has to be a lot more than Ed's to spit out the seals. = I drove my used engine supplier nuts yesterday, measured 6 different = rotors & all were from 2.13 to 2.28 mm, he old me they use these rotors = regularly for a long time & never had a problem. Mine are 2.17 to = 2.26mm, So I guess I'l have to buy new rotors. Georges Boucher =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 4/16/2005 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C543EA.D9055220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Georges,
 
I am waiting on two brand new 9.7:1 rotors to appear = on my=20 door step this week.  I will measure the slots at top and bottom = and expect=20 them to be the same.  Will report the results.  I measured = 1.98 mm at=20 the bottom of the slot on the old rotors - where I suspect = there would=20 be less wear.  But your slots appear to have more wear than mine at = the=20 top.  Myreadings ranged from 2.16 to 2.26 mm at the top of the=20 slot. 
 
Somewhere ( far away and along time ago), I recall = reading=20 that if the slots get too worn the smooth top of the apex seal that = should=20 rub against the housing gets cocked over too far and a rather = sharper=20 edge start to rub.  This and the angle increases drag = forces on=20 the seal - particularly in the center region - also the seal may start = to=20 chatter and you can see marks on the housing as periodically spaced = burnish=20 marks across the rotor housing chrome face (my rotor housings have = those=20 marks - can actually feel a faint wave pattern (valley and peaks in = the housing surface).  When the drag = forces reach=20 some point the apex seal breaks - once it breaks its only a matter of = time=20 before the pieces leave the slot. 
 
Ed A
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Echo=20 Lake Fishing Resort (Georges Boucher)
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 = 10:57=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Apex = Seal Groove=20 Wear

 Hi! Kelly
I must of mist Lynn's VST system, I don't understand what = those=20 measurements are.  I opened another 91 13b NA today & = to my=20 dismay it was toast (supposably a Mazda rebuilt in '99)
I measured at 90deg. to the apex slots with a digital = vernier=20 caliper the reading I got on this one were from 2.26 to 2.43 mm = the new=20 2mm seal is 1.91 to 1.94 wide, the max allowable clearance is = 0.1mm=20 therefore in this case the widest width should be 1.04mm so this = slot=20 has 0.39 mm excess wear at the slot opening. Has anyone=20 actually measured a new rotor? I guess I will buy = 2 new rotors=20 now
Georges 
 
-------Original=20 Message-------
 
From: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Date: = 04/17/05=20 15:33:47
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Apex Seal Groove Wear
 
Georges,
    Have you tried Lynn's VST (Vertical Seal = Test)=20 for apex slot wear and if so
what measurement did you get ? Lynn suggests that 3/16 inch = (.1875=20 inch)
or 4.7625 mm as the outer limit........Of course after all = the=20 posts on this subject
everyone may have their own personal limit !!
--
Kelly Troyer =
Dyke=20 Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2




--------------=20 Original message from "Echo Lake Fishing Resort (Georges = Boucher)"=20 <echolakeresort@telus.net>: --------------

 Hi! Leon
You have a point regarding air filter use on water, = when Mt=20 St Helen (Washington state) erupted the first time I had a = shop in=20 Vancouver BC Canada (about 300miles away) even at that = distance,=20 one of the fleets of vehicle that we serviced had to have = the air=20 filters replaced every second day( even a week the=20 eruption).
 I made the crack about no need for an air = filter for a=20 float plane in Canada, but actually much of the time float = planes=20 are started on the lake shores with the engine above the = ground=20 instead of the water. The other thing about air filters on = an=20 airplane, an alternate air source (like a slightly spring = loaded=20 flat) should be supplied ( in a float plane case , water = could=20 splash onto the element & freeze solid at altitude, = blocking=20 air to the intake). On the rotor apex seal subject, I = agree with=20 you regarding the amount of wear on the rotor seal = slot &=20 seal has to be a lot more than Ed's  to spit out the = seals. I=20 drove my used engine supplier nuts yesterday, = measured 6=20 different  rotors  & all were from 2.13 to = 2.28 mm,=20 he old me they use these rotors regularly for a long time = &=20 never had a problem. Mine are 2.17 to 2.26mm, So I guess = I'l have=20 to buy new rotors.
Georges Boucher
 
 
 
 

 
=
 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG=20 Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release = Date:=20 4/16/2005

>>  Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>  Archive:  =20 = http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C543EA.D9055220--