X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com X-PolluStop-Diagnostic: (direct reply)\eX-PolluStop-Score: 0.00\eX-PolluStop: Scanned with Niversoft PolluStop 2.1 RC1, http://www.niversoft.com/pollustop Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.101] (HELO ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c4) with ESMTP id 864323 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:38:51 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.101; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-185-127.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.185.127]) by ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j3ANc10W001549 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:38:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001d01c53e26$55c488f0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: The Verdit! c wasRe: [FlyRotary] No Joy on Sun & Fun{:<( Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:38:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C53E04.CDC6DB40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C53E04.CDC6DB40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, Kelly you and Al are both correct. The verdict is in and it = wasn't the plastic plenum! Took off the throttle body and looked inside = Plenum and as good as new, no missing pieces , no cracks, nothing = missing. A bit of relief that it wasn't the plenum. So I took out the sparkplugs and rotated the prop until I could see each = apex seal - surprisingly they all looked to be in one piece, in other = words there was no indication that any had shattered and scattered = pieces through the chamber - so far that is looking good. However, the #1 rotor apex seals did appear to have two nicks about the = width of the bottom of a spark plug - but the seals appear to be intact = - however there is no compression, Nada! on #1 rotor. By they way I = reported the rear rotor EGT went south, well its the rear rotor in my = aircraft which is of course the front rotor in the car. My EGT is = reference to rotor position in the aircraft, so the EGT for the "Rear" = rotor is actually for rotor #1.=20 I looked at the trailing spark plug for #1 and no evidence of any damage = and looking down the spark plug hole it appears that hole is probably = too small for the electrode to stick down through. The Leading spark = plug showed no damage, but the rear of the ground electrode (the curved = part attached to the side of the plug appeared to be burnished. =20 It appears that Al's assessment may be correct that particularly because = of the apparent orientation of the electrode when I screw it into the = hole ending up such that the apex hit the curved back part rather than = the end pointed toward the center electrode. It appears the apex seal = did bounce over that curve part for a while and either the apex seals = finally gave way or the springs under them did. Perhaps Lynn would know = if its possible to break the springs while leaving the seal intact. =20 #2 rotor does have compression although it seems a bit puny, you can = hear the pop when you pull it through whereas you get nothing from rotor = #1 If the #2 rotor's apex seals were hitting the sparkplug they = appeared to come off better although I suspect that they may have one of = the two springs under the seal bent/broken. Will know tomorrow. I took off the exhaust to get a better look, but could discern nothing = further, except it appears that (preliminary assessment) that the = springs supporting the seals may be shot. =20 By the time I got the engine off it had been 7 straight hours out in = the sun working on it, so got it loaded in the van and headed home. It appears by my misreading the sparkplug number ( the G sort of looks = like a Q {:>)), I did it to myself. I did hold the stock plug up for = comparison and the length appeared the same - and besides I thought I = had the right plug, so did not go for the calipers. I will measure them = just to see how much difference there is. Regarding the creative suggestion (which I really liked) to just leave = the engine in the Van and drive the van to Sun & Fun. I spent 5 hours = last week putting a new water pump in this van which is 18 years old = and over 130,000 miles on it with shot shocks and no air conditioning. = Call me a wimp but not NO - but H____ No! I won't go {:>). =20 Sorry fellows, I am more disappointed that you are about not getting to = go. But, I found out today the airport I limped to and landed on is = practically unattended as the FBO had a falling out with the county = council and is moving on. May be one reason that radios were stolen out = of aircraft there - in any case, I do not intend to leave the aircraft = there a moment longer than necessary. although with the radios, prop = and engine removed I wouldn't think anyone would mess with it - but you = never know. I intend to tear the engine down tomorrow. I take some photos of the = insides to let everyone see the outcome. Best Regards Ed =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 10:16 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] No Joy on Sun & Fun{:<( Ed, Al beat me to it !! I thought there was a letter wrong on those = plugs from=20 memory (which is slipping).......Was about to look it up in my saved = info.... Are you going to use up all possible failure modes before the rest of = us ?? Kidding of course.......So glad you are a cool head in these = situations !! Best Regards -- Kelly Troyer=20 Dyke Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2=20 -------------- Original message from "Ed Anderson" = : --------------=20 Thanks, Al, Yes, I truly mean it when I say so long as the problem permits me to = get back on the ground safely, I am not grousing. S__T does happen and = all you can do it try to avoid the worst of it {:>) =20 B9EGV? Humm, I apparently misread one of the e mails I had on the = plugs topic as B9EQV - wouldn't that be the kicker if all this came = about because I misread one letter. However since they are both "E" =3D = 3/4" length they should(maybe) be interchangeable. I did hold one up to = the stock plug and eyeballed it but had no reason to dig out the = calipers and measure it.=20 Thanks, I had not thought of that possibility as to why the delay = in damage (if it were caused by too long plugs) as the seals jumping = over the plug part until becoming too damaged. The rear rotor went = first which then started a vibration which may have helped the front = rotor's demise along. =20 Well, going out this AM to hopefully pull the engine load it in the = Van and get it back to the shop. Am going to check on the plugs and the = plenum - could be something else I guess - but not a clue as to what it = might be. Will keep everyone informed. =20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 1:10 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: No Joy on Sun & Fun{:<( , I had just put in 4 new B9EQV spark plugs the previous day. =20 Ed; Sorry to hear of your disappointing trip. But, hey; s__t happens. = You did the right thing, of course. When the engine isn't running = properly, you take the nearest airport. It's great that you and your = plane got down just fine. If it is the plugs, perhaps it's possible that the seals jumped = over the protruding plugs for a while until they became damaged enough = for loss of compression? Pulling a leading plug should tell the story = on that. How did you choose the B9EQV? Did you know of someone else = using them? I'm running the B9EGV and they are fine. Al ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C53E04.CDC6DB40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, Kelly you and Al are both = correct.  The=20 verdict is in and it wasn't the plastic plenum!  Took off the = throttle body=20 and looked inside Plenum and as good as new, no missing pieces , no = cracks,=20 nothing missing.  A bit of relief that it wasn't the = plenum.
 
So I took out the sparkplugs and = rotated the prop=20 until I could see each apex seal - surprisingly they all looked to be in = one=20 piece, in other words there was no indication that any had shattered and = scattered pieces through the chamber - so far that is looking = good.
 
However, the #1 rotor apex seals did = appear to have=20 two nicks about the width of the bottom of a spark plug - but the seals = appear=20 to be intact - however there is no compression, Nada! on #1 rotor.  = By they=20 way I reported the rear rotor EGT went south, well its the rear rotor in = my=20 aircraft which is of course the front rotor in the car.  My EGT is=20 reference to rotor position in the aircraft, so the EGT for the "Rear" = rotor is=20 actually for rotor #1.
 
I looked at the trailing spark plug for = #1 and no=20 evidence of any damage and looking down the spark plug hole it appears = that hole=20 is probably too small for the electrode to stick down through. = The Leading=20 spark plug showed no damage, but the rear of the ground electrode (the = curved=20 part attached to the side of the plug appeared to be burnished. =20
 
It appears that Al's assessment may be = correct that=20 particularly because of the apparent orientation of the electrode when I = screw=20 it into the hole ending up such that the apex hit the curved back part = rather=20 than the end pointed toward the center electrode.  It appears the = apex seal=20 did bounce over that curve part for a while and either the apex seals = finally=20 gave way or the springs under them did.  Perhaps Lynn would know if = its=20 possible to break the springs while leaving the seal intact.  =
 
#2 rotor does have compression although = it seems a=20 bit puny, you can hear the pop when you pull it through whereas you get = nothing=20 from rotor #1   If the #2 rotor's apex seals were hitting the=20 sparkplug they appeared to come off better although I suspect that they = may have=20 one of the two springs under the seal bent/broken.  Will know=20 tomorrow.
 
I took off the exhaust to get a better = look, but=20 could discern nothing further, except it appears that (preliminary = assessment)=20 that the springs supporting the seals may be shot. 
 
By the time I got the engine off it had = been =20 7 straight hours out in the sun working on it, so got it loaded in the = van and=20 headed home.
 
It appears by my misreading the = sparkplug number (=20 the G sort of looks like a Q {:>)), I did it to myself.  I did = hold the=20 stock plug up for comparison and the length appeared the same - and = besides I=20 thought I had the right plug, so did not go for the calipers.  I = will=20 measure them just to see how much difference there is.
 
Regarding the creative suggestion = (which I really=20 liked)  to just leave the engine in the Van and drive the van to = Sun &=20 Fun.  I spent 5 hours last week putting a new water pump in this = van which=20 is  18 years old and over = 130,000 miles=20 on it with shot shocks and no air conditioning.  Call me a wimp but = not NO=20 - but H____  No! I won't go {:>).  =
 
Sorry fellows,=20 I am more disappointed that you are about not getting to go.  But, = I found=20 out today the airport I limped to and landed on  is practically = unattended=20 as the FBO had a falling out with the county council and is moving = on.  May=20 be one reason that radios were stolen out of aircraft there - in = any case,=20 I do not intend to leave the aircraft there a moment longer than=20 necessary.  although with the radios, prop and engine removed I = wouldn't=20 think anyone would mess with it - but you never = know.
 
I intend to tear the engine down = tomorrow.  I=20 take some photos of the insides to let everyone see the = outcome.
 
Best Regards
 
Ed
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Kelly = Troyer
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 = 10:16=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] No Joy on = Sun &=20 Fun{:<(

Ed,
  Al beat me to it !! I thought there was a letter wrong on = those=20 plugs from
memory (which is slipping).......Was about to look it up in my = saved=20 info....
Are you going to use up all possible failure modes before the = rest of us=20 ??
Kidding of course.......So glad you are a cool head in these = situations=20 !!
 
Best Regards
--
Kelly Troyer
Dyke=20 Delta/13B/RD1C/EC2




--------------=20 Original message from "Ed Anderson" = <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>:=20 --------------

Thanks, Al,
 
Yes, I truly mean it when I say so = long as the=20 problem permits me to get back on the ground safely, I am not=20 grousing. S__T does happen and all you can do it try to avoid = the worst=20 of it {:>) 
 
B9EGV?  Humm,  I = apparently misread=20 one of the e mails I had on the plugs topic as B9EQV - wouldn't that = be the=20 kicker if all this came about because I misread one letter.  = However=20 since they are both "E" =3D 3/4" length they should(maybe) be=20 interchangeable.  I did hold one up to the stock plug = and=20 eyeballed it but had no reason to dig out the calipers and = measure=20 it. 
 
Thanks,  I had not thought of = that=20 possibility as to why the delay in damage (if it were caused by too = long=20 plugs) as the seals jumping over the plug part until becoming too=20 damaged.  The rear rotor = went first=20 which then started a vibration which may have helped the front = rotor's=20 demise along. 
 
Well, going out this AM to = hopefully pull the=20 engine load it in the Van and get it back to the shop.  Am = going to=20 check on the plugs and the plenum - could be something else I guess = - but=20 not a clue as to what it might be.
 
Will keep everyone informed. =20
 
Ed
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Al=20 Gietzen
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Sunday, April 10, = 2005 1:10=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: No = Joy on=20 Sun & Fun{:<(

, I = had just put=20 in 4 new B9EQV spark plugs the previous day.  =

 

Ed;

 

Sorry = to hear=20 of your disappointing trip.  But, hey; s__t happens. =  You did=20 the right thing, of course.  When the engine isn=92t running = properly,=20 you take the nearest airport.  It=92s great that you and your = plane got=20 down just fine.

 

If it = is the=20 plugs, perhaps it=92s possible that the seals jumped over the = protruding=20 plugs for a while until they became damaged enough for loss of=20 compression?  Pulling a leading plug should tell the story on = that.=20 How did you choose the B9EQV?  Did you know of someone else = using=20 them? I=92m running the B9EGV and they are fine.

 

Al

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