Return-Path: Received: from smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.63] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c3) with ESMTP id 816355 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:29:09 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.63; envelope-from=jerryhey@earthlink.net Received: from [65.176.168.20] (helo=earthlink.net) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DDsnN-0002cL-H8 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:28:23 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Date:Subject:Content-Type:Mime-Version:From:To:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:X-Mailer; b=Umw9VGTJcDEWkNhW4/ZP888KsPE6pTWl0MEbHgAgdVrKr2l41J9a5ATVohc4y6Es; Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:29:39 -0500 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive losses Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-12-82993724 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Jerry Hey To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <42F42AF9-9B2A-11D9-B27D-0003931B0C7A@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-ELNK-Trace: 8104856d7830ec6b1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79a1f49a39df4441dde5ba9e2c8eb2b2d2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 65.176.168.20 --Apple-Mail-12-82993724 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Thanks Ken, since I am building the fuel rail and injecting into the=20 bell mouths the Ford's can be easily installed. Glad to hear the=20 electrical hook up is the same. If I just say "Ford 42 lb injectors,"=20 are they properly identified? I'm tired of planning. This week end=20= I will start to actually build the intake. Jerry On Tuesday, March 22, 2005, at 06:06 PM, kenpowell@comcast.net wrote: > Jerry, the Ford injectors are not directly compatible.=A0 Here are the=20= > details:=A0 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ENGINE SIDE=A0=A0=A0=A0 FUEL RAIL = SIDE > Ford=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 0.55"=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 0.55=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 > Mazda=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 0.65 (with the FAT Mazda rubber ring) > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 0.435 > Note that the electrical connector is the same (center spline=20 > top/inside and center lower outside).=A0 So, the Ford injector will = hook=20 > up electrically but the fuel connectors must be different. > Ken Powell > Bryant, Arkansas > 501-847-4721 > =A0 > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > Ken, are the Ford injectors interchangeable with the stock Mazda > > injectors as far as size, plug and so on? If so, do you have a part > > number? BTW sorry but there is no way you can run a p port at 7500 > > rpm and only get 225 hp. Can you accept 240? Jerry > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, March 22, 2005, at 03:48 PM, kenpowell@comcast.net = wrote: > > > > > > But this graph was for a carburated engine so it really > > proves nothing. Besides, the engine only needs to be as rich as we > > want to run - you can't hurt the engine by running lean (I know, if > > you run it into the trees on a 100 F. day that will HURT it!!!). I > > have not seen any graphs showing power improvement beyond 0.6 on a = NA > > engine and with very little to be gained by going beyond .55. If > > anyone can educate me differently please do so (no kidding, I'm=20 > trying > > to learn). I'm planning on using 42 lb Ford injectors for my P-Port > > motor, if this isn't enough I want to know (planning on 225 HP at=20 > 7500 > > RPM). > > > > Ken Powell > > > > Bryant, Arkansas > > > > 501-847-4721 > > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > > > > v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* = {behavior:url(#default#VML);} > > w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape > > {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } > > > > Arial0000,0000,8080Rus > > ty, > > > > > > Arial0000,0000,8080Are > > you sure you=CCre allowing yourself enough margin on the top end by > > using .55 bsfc. This chart (snitched from the other list) indicates > > that .55 is about right up to around 7500, but at 8000 rpm bsfc will > > be up around .60. What does that do to your hp numbers? > > > > > > > > Arial0000,0000,8080 > > smaller> > > > > > > Arial0000,0000,8080Mar > > k > > S. > > > > > > Arial0000,0000,8080 > > smaller> > > > > > >< > > > > > > > > Arial0000,0000,8080 > > smaller> > > > > > >< > > > > > Times New Roman > > > > > > > > > From:Rotary motors in > > aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf > > OfRussell Duffy > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:25 PM > > > > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > > > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive > > losses > > > > > > Times New Roman > > > > > > Times New RomanRC Engineering's calcs show > > that you are good to 302 HP at 43 psi fuel pressure, .50 BSFC, and > > 100% duty cycle. Of course you can't run the injectors at 100% > > (except maybe briefly like a drag race, not applicable to aircraft). > > So at 80% duty cycle the 38 lb injectors should be good for 242 HP. > > Enjoy your idle!!! Your injectors are big enough unless you P-Port > > and turn at least 8000 RPM. > > > > > > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000Hi > > Ken, > > > > > > Times New Roman > > > > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000RC > > Engineering's calc shows the same as the fuel calculator that I > > posted the other day. Four 38 lb/hr injectors, at 80% duty cycle, = .55 > > BSFC, should be good for about 220 HP at the flywheel. I imagine = that > > will be enough for the current engine, but not by a wide margin. I > > plan to run this engine as high as 8000 if I can, though I'll be > > amazed if I can get beyond 7500. Don't need no stinkin' P-Port for > > these rpms :-) > > > > > > Times New Roman > > > > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000On > > the fuel spreadsheet that I posted (stolen) the other day, it gives = a > > HP figure for the flywheel, and rear wheels. The estimate for > > the power loss due to a manual trans and diff is 15% on this > > spreadsheet. Anyone know what this amounts to for our redrive, and > > prop? > > > > > > Times New Roman > > > > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000Cheers, > > or> > > > > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000Rusty > > (hoping Ed out types me) > > > > > > Times New Roman > > > > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000 > > fontfamily> > > > > > > < > --Apple-Mail-12-82993724 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 Thanks Ken, since I am building the fuel rail and injecting into the bell mouths the Ford's can be easily installed. Glad to hear the electrical hook up is the same. If I just say "Ford 42 lb injectors," are they properly identified? I'm tired of planning. This week end I will start to actually build the intake. Jerry On Tuesday, March 22, 2005, at 06:06 PM, kenpowell@comcast.net wrote: Jerry, the Ford injectors are not directly compatible.=A0 Here are the details:=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ENGINE SIDE=A0=A0=A0=A0 FUEL RAIL SIDE Ford=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 0.55"=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 0.55=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Mazda=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 0.65 (with the FAT Mazda rubber ring) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 0.435 Note that the electrical connector is the same (center spline top/inside and center lower outside).=A0 So, the Ford injector will hook up electrically but the fuel connectors must be different. Ken Powell Bryant, Arkansas 501-847-4721 =A0 -------------- Original message -------------- > Ken, are the Ford injectors interchangeable with the stock Mazda > injectors as far as size, plug and so on? If so, do you have a part > number? BTW sorry but there is no way you can run a p port at 7500 > rpm and only get 225 hp. Can you accept 240? Jerry > > > > > > On Tuesday, March 22, 2005, at 03:48 PM, kenpowell@comcast.net wrote: > > > But this graph was for a carburated engine so it really > proves nothing. Besides, the engine only needs to be as rich as we > want to run - you can't hurt the engine by running lean (I know, if > you run it into the trees on a 100 F. day that will HURT it!!!). I > have not seen any graphs showing power improvement beyond 0.6 on a NA > engine and with very little to be gained by going beyond .55. If > anyone can educate me differently please do so (no kidding, I'm trying > to learn). I'm planning on using 42 lb Ford injectors for my P-Port > motor, if this isn't enough I want to know (planning on 225 HP at 7500 > RPM). > > Ken Powell > > Bryant, Arkansas > > 501-847-4721 > > > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} > w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape > {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } > > Arial0000,0000,8080Rus > ty, > > > Arial0000,0000,8080Are > you sure you=CCre allowing yourself enough margin on the top end by > using .55 bsfc. This chart (snitched from the other list) indicates > that .55 is about right up to around 7500, but at 8000 rpm bsfc will > be up around .60. What does that do to your hp numbers? > > > > Arial0000,0000,8080 > smaller> > > > Arial0000,0000,8080Mar > k > S. > > > Arial0000,0000,8080 > smaller> > > ><< > > > > Arial0000,0000,8080 > smaller> > > ><< > >
Times New Roman > >
> > From:Rotary motors in > aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf > OfRussell Duffy > > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:25 PM > > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel injector size, and redrive > losses > > > Times New Roman > > > Times New RomanRC Engineering's calcs show > that you are good to 302 HP at 43 psi fuel pressure, .50 BSFC, and > 100% duty cycle. Of course you can't run the injectors at 100% > (except maybe briefly like a drag race, not applicable to aircraft). > So at 80% duty cycle the 38 lb injectors should be good for 242 HP. > Enjoy your idle!!! Your injectors are big enough unless you P-Port > and turn at least 8000 RPM. > > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000Hi > Ken, > > > Times New Roman > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000RC > Engineering's calc shows the same as the fuel calculator that I > posted the other day. Four 38 lb/hr injectors, at 80% duty cycle, .55 > BSFC, should be good for about 220 HP at the flywheel. I imagine that > will be enough for the current engine, but not by a wide margin. I > plan to run this engine as high as 8000 if I can, though I'll be > amazed if I can get beyond 7500. Don't need no stinkin' P-Port for > these rpms :-) > > > Times New Roman > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000On > the fuel spreadsheet that I posted (stolen) the other day, it gives a > HP figure for the flywheel, and rear wheels. The estimate for > the power loss due to a manual trans and diff is 15% on this > spreadsheet. Anyone know what this amounts to for our redrive, and > prop? > > > Times New Roman > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000Cheers, > or> > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000Rusty > (hoping Ed out types me) > > > Times New Roman > > > ArialFFFF,0000,0000 > fontfamily> > > > << = --Apple-Mail-12-82993724--