Return-Path: Received: from imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net ([205.152.59.68] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c1) with ESMTP id 721807 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 10:15:30 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.152.59.68; envelope-from=sqpilot@bellsouth.net Received: from [209.214.45.22] by imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.11 201-253-122-130-111-20040605) with ESMTP id <20050209151342.MUFC1977.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@[209.214.45.22]> for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:13:42 -0500 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.300 [265.8.6]); Wed, 09 Feb 2005 09:13:16 -0600 Message-ID: <012301c50eb9$c64a64b0$a92cd6d1@paul52u7f5qyav> From: "Paul" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] To Paul Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Microtech EFI and Tuning Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:12:19 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-420A288C4EA4=======" --=======AVGMAIL-420A288C4EA4======= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_011A_01C50E87.7528A920" ------=_NextPart_000_011A_01C50E87.7528A920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Leon thanks for taking the time to go into such detail (as is = customary for you) regarding suggestions for tuning my engine, etc. I = took no offense with your comments. I would never be upset that someone = is looking out for me. Removing the engine, coils, ECU, handset, = exhaust, etc would be labor intensive, as the coils are mounted on the = firewall, the wiring for the ignition and handset go all the way from = the firewall to the instrument panel in a narrow center console that = took hours to "snake" the wires through, (engine is in the rear, and = panel is in the front on a pusher) the handset is hard-mounted to the = instrument panel, and the engine is mounted with an aluminum plate = sandwiched between the oil pan and block, so removal would require = reassembling the pan, shortening the oil pickup tube so that I could = install the pan without the 1/2" thick aluminum spacer, my water pump = has -16 AN fittings welded to it, so the dyno tuner could not use = radiator hoses, and a host of other tasks, which while not impossible, = are very time consuming to say the least. I would gladly pay a lot of = money for someone to do it on site. (mobile tuners). =20 As far as the fuel tank debris is concerned, that is a well known = fact amongst the canard community. I am fortunate that my fuel strakes = are different from other fiberglass canards, in that they are already = completely formed by the factory, (a top and bottom), with fuel tank = openings already installed prior to installing them, so there is no = drilling, sanding or fabricating, just glassing the top and bottom = together on the fuselage, and that is all done on the outside of the = fuel tanks. I still, however check my fuel filter screen, just in case. = So far, nothing.=20 Thanks again for all of your valued input and suggestions. I have = not totally given up on the MicroTech....just considering my = alternatives, and as they say, it costs nothing to do your homework. = Yes, I was lucky to get the aircraft (and myself) safely back to Earth = in one piece. I don't care to repeat that excercise any time soon....I = am going to pull the spark plugs today and take a good look at them, and = start my trouble shooting expedition. Take care, and thanks again for = your valued input. Hey....if you'd like a mini vacation in the states, = we'd be happy to put you up and buy you steak and lobster.... Paul, I'm so confused, Conner ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Leon=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 5:28 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] To Paul Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Microtech EFI and = Tuning Hi Paul, Look mate, I really feel for you over there, and what's happening. I = wasn't having a "go" at you, or trying to belittle you. Far from it. = It was Tom's uninformed comment that really got up my nose, hence the = abrasive reply. I'm not normally quite as manic! Indeed, I just wish I could personally assist you, but we are 12,000 = miles apart. Personally, I don't think your fan stoppage has anything = to do with the ECU itself. It will be most probably be something silly = and trivial. I think in one of my previous email exchanges with you, I = made the point that diagnosis of faults has to be done in a systematic = fashion, but as I'm so far away, I can only give you broad guidelines. As it happens, I was talking to a mate of mine who writes C of As for = Experimental Aircraft here in Oz about your predicament this afternoon . = When I told him it was a composite aircraft, his comment was that = statistically, fuel filters have been known to clog between 4 and ten = hours on such aircraft with monotonous regularity. His advice is to = change the fuel filters every 2 hours until they don't have any more = debris in them. Apparently, (and I'm no expert in this but he is), all the left over = stuff in the composite fuel tanks (the dust, glass fibre, and the = coating material etc) will be flushed out and it does a real good job of = clogging the fuel filters(s). Doesn't matter how scrupulous you are = with cleanliness, you just can't get rid of ALL the junk. So two, = three or sometimes four fuel filter changes are "de rigueur" until they = are clear of such debris. So first thing would be to check the filters. = The other obvious thing is to check for water in your tanks. The third = obvious thing would be a dud fuse, or a loose wire somewhere. Those = are the three things I'd be looking at first. Then go looking for the = more esoteric things like blocked tank vents, crimped fuel lines, etc. Back to engine tuning. Unless we here in Oz are wired up totally = differently to engine tuners in the USA, I'm pretty sure you could go = to any professional dyno tuner, give him the MicroTech manual, pay him = a some bux to sit down on his butt and study it, and he would know = exactly how to tune the thing the very next day. See, if a dipstick = like me can learn to do it, (and I'm sure there are people in your = corner of the woods that are a LOT smarter than me), a good Yankee dyno = man will pick up on it in a flash. So you first need to find a friendly dyno tuner in your area who can = tune preferably either Motec, or Autronic EFI, but almost any = after-market EFI system will do. Anyone who can tune either of these = two units will find the Microtech primitive by comparison, and very = simple to tune. But tuning DOES require a basic understanding of engine = tuning procedures, and how engines ACTUALLY work. I'd say that ANY = good auto electrician/EFI person would get his head around the manual in = two or three hours. The prime requisite is that you know how EFI = systems work, understand Air/Fuel ratios, and can use a gas analyser = and/or Lambda meter. To get the engine tuned on an engine dyno, you would need to take the = whole engine, complete with manifolds, water pump etc. Most engine = dyno shops have their own fuel supply system for EFI, and their own = cooling systems for oil & water. You would also need to take your ECU, = the hand set, and the wiring loom. You would need to talk to the = particular shop concerned to see exactly what else they needed. By = using an engine dyno, you will find out exactly how much torque, and = how many BHP you have at each RPM point (normally every 500 RPM is = sufficient), just as Al did. However, we also have blokes over here who are mobile tuners. They = will come to you. There must be similar services in the USA. To set the = thing up pretty close, all that is needed is an accurate Air/Fuel ratio = meter and a 4 wire Lambda sensor. As I said, I can do a Microtech = pretty close to right in an hour, starting from scratch. As an aside, an Ellison might be just as much trouble. I heartily = concur with Bill Jepson who made the point that Ellisons are designed = for big bore, lazy piston engines. The vacuum signal, and the air = flow characteristics of a Lyc are very different to a Wankel. As I have = no idea how an Ellison meters it's fuel, I could be wrong, but I could = see you needing to put in some considerable time tuning the thing = anyway. As a ROUGH comparison, to run a 13B on an IDA or DCOE Weber, it = needs a minimum of 2 by 38 mm (1.5") chokes to provide around 180 BHP @ = 6,500 RPM. This would equate to around a single 54-55 mm choke as a = bare minimum. Anyway, if I can be of any more assistance, feel free to email me at = any time. But please, take care with your flying. I was scared = witless just reading about your last escapade!! You are obviously a = really cool customer, and an exceptional pilot. Cheers mate, Leon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Paul=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:39 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Microtech EFI and Tuning, was Re: = [FlyRotary] Re: Bad day at the airport Hi, Leon....thanks for responding. I am not quite sure I understand = what you meant about the risks I have taken so far. I have done many = full power runups on the ground with the nose of the aircraft up against = my van (with a large 8inch deep block of foam inbetween), and adjusted = the mixtures until I got the highest rpm's I could, then continued = leaning until the egt peaked, then started to surge, then richened it = back up until it ran smoothly and the egt's stabilized. I got up to = 5100 rpms static, and most people told me that the prop would most = likely unload in flight. How can I obtain more than 5100 rpm's unless I = fly it? I have 9.5 hours of smooth, uneventful flight, without the = engine ever missing a beat. I always climbed to at least 2500 feet = directly above the airport prior to making any mixture changes. My = primary concern with my engine is the lack of power, which you said was = because I have a turbo engine without a turbo, which would only give me = around 140 horsepower. After reading your recommendations, I am = presently building a street ported 4-port with NA rotors and housings.=20 I guess I don't understand your statement "Considering the = risks Paul has taken so far....he should take the engine out of the = aircraft, take it to a professional engine tuner and stick it on a dyno, = and get it properly tuned". If I take it off the aircraft, do I also = take along both fuel pumps, filters, hoses, surge tank, MicroTech ECU, = handset, exhaust system, wiring harness, etc? =20 As far as bucks, that is no problem. I would gladly spend the = money for safety. I talked to Dave Atkins several times regarding this. = He was somewhat helpful, but I kinda got the feeling I was taking him = away from his work. He is over 2000 miles away, so coming to Alabama to = tune if for me is not an option. I checked with the local Mazda = rebuilder, and he has rebuilt many rotaries, but has never used a = MicroTech ECU. I had no luck locating anyone familiar with the = MicroTech in the yellow pages of the phone book. That's one of the = reasons I am considering a carburetor....all of the A&P mechanics at the = airport are familiar with the aircraft carburetor....none of them are = familiar with the MicroTech. I would be more than happy to pay for the = help....I just can't find it. As far as MicroTech, I even contacted = MicroTech USA and asked them if they had the original factory default = settings so that I could reset my unit to factory default settings, and = they told me to contact the dealer I purchased it from. I asked Dave = Atkins, (I purchased it from Dave) and he does not have that = information. I called MicroTech back, and they informed me that was = because Atkins Rotary is not an authorized MicroTech dealer. Guess I am = out of luck. Thanks for all the support, MicroTech. =20 I wish to point out that I am in no way condemming the = MicroTech ECU. It was easy to install with it's pre-wired harness and = excellent instruction manual and schematics. It has more features than I = will ever use, to include data mapping. You can even limit rpm's, boost, = turn on auxillary cooling fans, change the timing, mixture, amount of = milliseconds the injectors are open, adjust how much extra fuel is = injected for cold start enrichment, hell, I think it will even cook your = breakfast and do the dishes. Finding someone familiar with the MicroTech = for assistance is another story, however. Paul Conner ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Leon=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 9:34 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Microtech EFI and Tuning, was Re: [FlyRotary] = Re: Bad day at the airport Hey Tom, Couldn't help reading your comment: "Microtech isn't that cheap and sofar not proven that reliable = overall." =20 That sort of comment REALLY, REALLY gets up my nose, especially = coming from someone who is inexperienced in these matters. I've been = selling and tuning these things since the early '90s!! I was also = involved in the early development of them for rotaries as far back as = '1992. So let's tackle your assertions: PRICE Firstly, price wise, they are $1250 AUD here in Oz. If anyone is = silly enough to pay double that in the US, then good luck!!! At = current exchange rates (76 cents), that's UNDER a grand USD. Plus = $85 AUD for a 3 Kg EMS courier bag, (gets there in a few days, ask Todd = Bartrim), plus whatever fees, taxes, and import duties you pay at = your end. That price includes the hand set. The LT-8/LTX-8 units, = without the handset, are $1050/1095 AUD (around $800/830 USD). For = another $150 AUD ($115 USD), you get the laptop dongle and software for = a full EIS display on a computer screen, and includes full Data Logging = etc. See:. http://www.microtech-efi.com/category/4.html So for Under $2,000 USD (plus taxes and import duties etc), you = can have COMPLETE redundancy (buy two units and one handset), plus a = full EIS display, plus Logging!!! Compare that with whatever else is = available on the market!!!! NOTHING even comes close price wise!!!! RELIABILTY Secondly, there have been literally THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of = units sold here and overseas over a period of 12 years, `and they are = VERY, VERY, VERY reliable. If you can't afford a Motec or an Autronic, = then the ONLY (in my opinion anyway) other reliable option is a = Microtech. But PLEASE don't blame the equipment when it is the = OPERATOR!!! Which brings me to the next point ... TUNABILITY Thirdly, as with any fuel injection/engine management system = (doesn't matter WHAT brand), you still need to have the engine tuned = correctly. I have already stressed on several occasions in my = correspondence to Paul Conner that he MUST get the engine tuned = properly. If he can't do it himself, then PAY a professional to do it. = It 'ain't hard if you know what you are doing. It's almost impossible = if you DON'T!! Get the Pro to check out the rest of the EFI system = while he's at it. You either understand how an engine works, or you don't. If you = don't, then pay a Pro to do it for you. Just like you don't attempt to = fix your own teeth, or set your own broken limbs, or remove your own = appendix!!!. =20 With the aid of a good Air/Fuel ratio meter, I can set up a = Microtech pretty close in about an hour. That's all it takes. The = instructions are clear and precise. But as engine tuning is a "black = art", it does require a certain amount of experience, and a great deal = of understanding. Tuning engines while flying is just asking for it!! = Which brings me to the next topic ... RISKY BEHAVIOUR Considering the risks Paul has taken so far, (the potential loss = his aircraft, not to mention others), and not to mention his own = life & limb (and possibly those of others), I am of the opinion that he = should take the engine out of the aircraft, take it to a professional = engine tuner and stick it on a dyno, and get it properly tuned. CHEAP = insurance!!! Al Geitzen did his tuning on a dyno. Al's smart, even if we = don't agree on BMEP and running turbo rotors in NA aircraft engines!! = (}:>) (Yea Al, I luv youse too!!). See, Al now knows exactly how = much grunt he's got from his 20B, and at what RPM. No guesswork here. = So he can go to a prop manufacturer and get exactly the right prop first = go. So why is it all so hard to do things properly??? If bux are = really tight, (and I don't think that's a problem, otherwise we = wouldn't be talking about buying a couple of Ellisons or a Cessna would = we??!!) Then at least tie the plane down and get a professional tuner = to come out and tune the sucker at the airport, and make sure it is = reliable on the ground (lots of high speed taxi testing with the = turkeys) before trying to soar with eagles. You are just asking for trouble if the engine isn't tuned = properly, and especially if all the bugs aren't ironed out of the EFI = system and fuel supply etc. Who actually knows what caused the fan to = stop in Paul's case? Water in the fuel, blocked tank vent? Blocked = fuel filter?? Pump failure?? Electrical failure?? Why blame the EFI?? Anyway, that's my handful of very abrasive industrial diamond = paste for today. Cheers, Leon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 3:13 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bad day at the airport Paul, Ellison is a substitute for a carburetor, some kind of = 'new' technology that's been around for some time and seems to be simple = & successful and has a good reputation. Avgas only, like a Cessna. = While there's no venturi they still recomend carb heat. I'm sure = there's a size that's overkill for the motor now on your bench. They = offer units for hp greater than most of these rotaries can put out.=20 Your statement of 'carburetor or Cessna' really rang a bell with = me, kind of a wake-up call. As for expense, for me I wouldn't have to = deal with the cost or issues you're encountering with the fuel-injection = setup. Microtech isn't that cheap and sofar not proven that reliable = overall.=20 Rusty, why would you need more than one? Consider Tracy's = current intake setup for his Renesis, essentially remove the injector = hardware and replace his throttle plate with an Ellison. =20 I've been sketching manifolds this morning and i can see they'd = not be that difficult to make out of either aluminum or steel. =20 Warning, I have no first-hand experience with Ellison's. Just = what I've gleaned from magazines and the internet.=20 My .01cent Tom Paul wrote: Does an Ellison throttle body have injectors, or is it a = substitute for a carburetor? Paul Conner ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: = 2/7/2005 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 ------=_NextPart_000_011A_01C50E87.7528A920 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Leon thanks for taking the time to = go into such=20 detail (as is customary for you) regarding suggestions for tuning my = engine,=20 etc. I took no offense with your comments. I would never = be upset=20 that someone is looking out for me.  Removing the engine, coils, = ECU,=20 handset, exhaust, etc would be labor intensive, as the coils are mounted = on the=20 firewall, the wiring for the ignition and handset go all the way from = the=20 firewall to the instrument panel in a narrow center console that took = hours to=20 "snake" the wires through, (engine is in the rear, and panel is in the = front on=20 a pusher) the handset is hard-mounted to the instrument panel, and = the=20 engine is mounted with an aluminum plate sandwiched between the oil pan = and=20 block, so removal would require reassembling the pan, shortening the oil = pickup=20 tube so that I could install the pan without the 1/2" thick aluminum = spacer, my=20 water pump has -16 AN fittings welded to it, so the dyno tuner could not = use=20 radiator hoses, and a host of other tasks, which while not impossible, = are very=20 time consuming to say the least.  I would gladly pay a lot of money = for=20 someone to do it on site. (mobile tuners). 
     As far as the = fuel tank=20 debris is concerned, that is a well known fact amongst the canard=20 community.  I am fortunate that my fuel strakes are different from = other=20 fiberglass canards, in that they are already completely formed by the = factory,=20 (a top and bottom), with fuel tank openings already installed prior to=20 installing them, so there is no drilling, sanding or fabricating, just = glassing=20 the top and bottom together on the fuselage, and that is all done on the = outside=20 of the fuel tanks. I still, however check my fuel filter screen, just in = case.=20 So far, nothing.
     Thanks again = for all of=20 your valued input and suggestions.  I have not totally given up on = the=20 MicroTech....just considering my alternatives, and as they say, it costs = nothing=20 to do your homework.  Yes, I was lucky to get the aircraft (and = myself)=20 safely back to Earth in one piece. I don't care to repeat that excercise = any=20 time soon....I am going to pull the spark plugs today and take a good = look at=20 them, and start my trouble shooting expedition.  Take care, and = thanks=20 again for your valued input.  Hey....if you'd like a mini vacation = in the=20 states, we'd be happy to put you up and buy you steak and=20 lobster....
      Paul, = I'm so=20 confused, Conner
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Leon
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, = 2005 5:28=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] To Paul = Re:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Microtech EFI and Tuning

Hi Paul,
 
Look mate, I really feel for you = over=20 there,  and what's happening. I wasn't having a "go" at = you, =20 or trying to belittle you.  Far from it.  It was Tom's = uninformed=20 comment that really got up my nose,  hence the abrasive = reply.  I'm=20 not normally quite as manic!
 
Indeed,  I just wish I could = personally=20 assist you,  but we are 12,000 miles apart.  = Personally,  I=20 don't think your fan stoppage has anything to do with the ECU = itself.  It=20 will be most probably be something silly and trivial.  I think in = one of=20 my previous email exchanges with you,  I made the point that = diagnosis of=20 faults has to be done in a systematic fashion,  but as I'm so far = away,  I can only give you broad guidelines.
 
As it happens,  I was talking to = a mate of=20 mine who writes C of As for Experimental Aircraft here in Oz about = your=20 predicament this afternoon .  When I told him it was a composite=20 aircraft,  his comment was that statistically,  fuel=20 filters have been known to clog between 4 and ten hours = on such=20 aircraft with monotonous regularity. His advice is to change the = fuel=20 filters every 2 hours until they don't have any more debris in=20 them.
 
Apparently,  (and I'm no expert = in this but=20 he is),  all the left over stuff in the composite fuel tanks (the = dust, glass fibre,  and the coating material etc) will = be=20 flushed out and it does a real good job of clogging the fuel = filters(s). =20 Doesn't matter how scrupulous you are with cleanliness,  you just = can't=20 get rid of ALL the junk.  So two,  three or sometimes four = fuel=20 filter changes are "de rigueur" until they are clear of such = debris.  So=20 first thing would be to check the filters.  The other obvious = thing is to=20 check for water in your tanks.  The third obvious thing = would be a=20 dud fuse,  or a loose wire somewhere.  Those are the three = things=20 I'd be looking at first.  Then go looking for the more esoteric = things=20 like blocked tank vents,  crimped fuel lines,  = etc.
 
Back to engine tuning.  = Unless we=20 here in Oz are wired up totally differently to engine tuners in = the=20 USA,  I'm pretty sure you could go to any professional dyno=20 tuner,  give him the MicroTech manual,  pay him a some bux = to sit=20 down on his butt and study it,  and he would know = exactly how=20 to tune the thing the very next day.  See,  if a dipstick = like me=20 can learn to do it, (and I'm sure there are people in your corner = of the=20 woods that are a LOT smarter than me),  a good Yankee dyno=20 man will pick up on it in a flash.
 
So you first need to find a friendly = dyno tuner=20 in your area who can tune preferably either Motec,  or = Autronic=20 EFI,  but almost any after-market EFI system will do.  = Anyone who=20 can tune either of these two units will find the Microtech primitive = by=20 comparison,  and very simple to tune. But tuning DOES = require a=20 basic understanding of engine tuning procedures,  and how engines = ACTUALLY work.  I'd say that ANY good auto electrician/EFI person = would=20 get his head around the manual in two or three hours.  The prime=20 requisite is that you know how EFI systems work,  understand = Air/Fuel=20 ratios,  and can use a gas analyser and/or Lambda = meter.
 
To get the engine tuned on = an engine=20 dyno,  you would need to take the whole engine,  = complete with=20 manifolds,  water pump etc.  Most engine dyno shops = have their=20 own fuel supply system for EFI,  and their own cooling systems = for oil=20 & water. You would also need to take your ECU,  the hand = set,  and the wiring loom. You would need to talk to the = particular=20 shop concerned to see exactly what else they needed.  By = using an=20 engine dyno,  you will find out exactly how much torque,  = and=20 how many BHP you have at each RPM point (normally every 500 RPM = is=20 sufficient),  just as Al did.
 
However,  we also have blokes = over here who=20 are mobile tuners.  They will come to you. There must be = similar=20 services in the USA. To set the thing up pretty close,  all = that is=20 needed is an accurate Air/Fuel ratio meter and a 4 wire Lambda = sensor. =20 As I said,  I can do a Microtech pretty close to = right in=20 an hour,  starting from scratch.
 
As an aside,  an Ellison might = be just as=20 much trouble.  I heartily concur with Bill Jepson who made = the point=20 that Ellisons are designed for big bore,  lazy piston = engines.  The=20 vacuum signal,  and the air flow characteristics of a Lyc are = very=20 different to a Wankel. As I have no idea how an Ellison meters = it's=20 fuel,  I could be wrong,  but I could see you needing to put = in some=20 considerable time tuning the thing anyway.
 
As a ROUGH comparison,  to = run a 13B on=20 an IDA or DCOE Weber,  it needs a minimum of 2 = by 38 mm=20 (1.5") chokes to provide around 180 BHP @ 6,500 RPM.  = This=20 would equate to around a single 54-55 mm choke as a bare = minimum.
 
Anyway,  if I can be of any more = assistance,  feel free to email me at any time.  But = please, =20 take care with your flying.  I was scared witless just reading = about your=20 last escapade!!  You are obviously a really cool customer,  = and an=20 exceptional pilot.
 
Cheers mate,
 
Leon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Paul=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, = 2005 6:39=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Microtech EFI=20 and Tuning, was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Bad day at the airport

Hi, Leon....thanks for = responding.  I am=20 not quite sure I understand what you meant about the risks I have = taken so=20 far.  I have done many full power runups on the ground with the = nose of=20 the aircraft up against my van (with a large 8inch deep block of = foam=20 inbetween), and adjusted the mixtures until I got the highest rpm's = I could,=20 then continued leaning until the egt peaked, then started to surge, = then=20 richened it back up until it ran smoothly and the egt's = stabilized.  I=20 got up to 5100 rpms static, and most people told me that the prop = would most=20 likely unload in flight.  How can I obtain more than 5100 rpm's = unless=20 I fly it?  I have 9.5 hours of smooth, uneventful flight, = without the=20 engine ever missing a beat.  I always climbed to at least 2500 = feet=20 directly above the airport prior to making any mixture changes. My = primary=20 concern with my engine is the lack of power, which you said was = because I=20 have a turbo engine without a turbo, which would only give me around = 140=20 horsepower. After reading your recommendations, I am presently = building=20 a street ported 4-port with NA rotors and housings.
     I guess I = don't=20 understand your statement "Considering the risks Paul has taken so = far....he=20 should take the engine out of the aircraft, take it to a = professional engine=20 tuner and stick it on a dyno, and get it properly tuned".  If I = take it=20 off the aircraft, do I also take along both fuel pumps, filters, = hoses,=20 surge tank, MicroTech ECU, handset, exhaust system, wiring = harness,=20 etc? 
      As = far as bucks,=20 that is no problem.  I would gladly spend the money for = safety. I=20 talked to Dave Atkins several times regarding this. He was somewhat = helpful,=20 but I kinda got the feeling I was taking him away from = his work. =20 He is over 2000 miles away, so coming to Alabama to tune if for = me is=20 not an option.  I checked with the local Mazda rebuilder, and = he=20 has rebuilt many rotaries, but has never used a MicroTech=20 ECU.  I had no luck locating anyone familiar with the = MicroTech in=20 the yellow pages of the phone book. That's one of the reasons I am considering a = carburetor....all of the=20 A&P mechanics at the airport are familiar with the aircraft=20 carburetor....none of them are familiar with the MicroTech. I would = be more=20 than happy to pay for the help....I just can't find it.  As far = as=20 MicroTech, I even contacted MicroTech USA and asked them if they had = the=20 original factory default settings so that I could reset my unit to = factory=20 default settings, and they told me to contact the dealer I purchased = it=20 from. I asked Dave Atkins, (I purchased it from Dave) and he does = not have=20 that information. I called MicroTech back, and they informed me that = was=20 because Atkins Rotary is not an authorized MicroTech dealer.  = Guess I=20 am out of luck.  Thanks for all the support, MicroTech. =20
      I = wish to point=20 out that I am in no way condemming the MicroTech ECU. It was easy to = install=20 with it's pre-wired harness and excellent instruction manual and = schematics.=20 It has more features than I will ever use, to include data mapping. = You can=20 even limit rpm's, boost, turn on auxillary cooling fans, change the = timing,=20 mixture, amount of milliseconds the injectors are open, adjust how = much=20 extra fuel is injected for cold start enrichment, hell, I think it = will even=20 cook your breakfast and do the dishes. Finding someone familiar with = the=20 MicroTech for assistance is another story, however.  = Paul=20 Conner
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Leon=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, = 2005 9:34=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Microtech EFI=20 and Tuning, was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Bad day at the airport

Hey Tom,
 
Couldn't help reading your=20 comment:
 
 "Microtech isn't that cheap and sofar not proven that = reliable=20 overall."  
 
That  sort of comment REALLY,  REALLY gets = up my=20 nose,  especially coming from someone who is inexperienced in = these=20 matters. I've been selling and tuning these things since the = early=20 '90s!!  I was also involved in the early development of = them for=20 rotaries as far back as '1992.  So let's tackle your=20 assertions:
 
PRICE
 
Firstly,  price wise,  they are $1250 AUD = here in=20 Oz. If anyone is silly enough to pay double that in the = US, =20 then good luck!!!  At current  exchange rates (76 = cents), =20 that's  UNDER a grand USD.  Plus $85 AUD for a 3 Kg EMS = courier=20 bag, (gets there in a few days,  ask Todd Bartrim),  = plus=20 whatever fees,  taxes,  and import duties you pay = at your=20 end.  That price includes the hand set.  The = LT-8/LTX-8=20 units,  without the handset,  are $1050/1095 AUD = (around=20 $800/830 USD).   For another $150 AUD ($115 USD),  = you get=20 the laptop dongle and software for a full EIS display on a = computer=20 screen,  and includes full Data Logging  etc.  = See:.
 
http://www.microtec= h-efi.com/category/4.html
 
So for Under $2,000 USD (plus = taxes and=20 import duties etc),  you can have COMPLETE redundancy (buy = two units=20 and one handset),  plus a full EIS display,  plus=20 Logging!!!  Compare that with whatever else is available on = the=20 market!!!!  NOTHING even comes close price = wise!!!!
 
RELIABILTY
 
Secondly,  there have been literally THOUSANDS and=20 THOUSANDS of units sold here and overseas over a period of 12 = years,  `and they are VERY,  VERY, =20 VERY reliable. If you can't afford a Motec or an = Autronic, =20 then the ONLY (in my opinion anyway) other reliable option is = a=20 Microtech.  But PLEASE don't blame the equipment when it = is the=20 OPERATOR!!!  Which brings me to the next point ...
 
TUNABILITY
 
Thirdly,  as with any fuel injection/engine management = system=20 (doesn't matter WHAT brand),  you still need to have the = engine tuned=20 correctly.  I have already stressed on several occasions = in my=20 correspondence to Paul Conner that he MUST get the engine = tuned=20 properly.  If he can't do it himself,  then PAY a = professional=20 to do it.  It 'ain't hard if you know what you are = doing.  It's=20 almost impossible if you DON'T!!  Get the Pro to check out = the rest=20 of the EFI system while he's at it.
 
You either understand how an engine works,  or you = don't. =20 If you don't,  then pay a Pro to do it for you.  Just = like you=20 don't attempt to fix your own teeth,  or set your own broken=20 limbs,  or remove your own appendix!!!. 
 
With the aid of a good Air/Fuel ratio meter,  I can set = up a=20 Microtech pretty close in about an hour.  That's all it=20 takes.  The instructions are clear and precise.  But as = engine=20 tuning is a "black art",  it does require a certain amount of = experience,  and a great deal of understanding.  Tuning = engines=20 while flying is just asking for it!!  Which brings me to the = next=20 topic ...
 
RISKY BEHAVIOUR
 
Considering the = risks Paul has=20 taken so far,  (the potential loss his = aircraft,  not=20 to mention others),  and  not to mention  his=20 own life & limb (and possibly those of others),  I = am of the=20 opinion that he should take the engine out of the aircraft,  = take it=20 to a professional engine tuner and stick it on a dyno,  and = get it=20 properly tuned. CHEAP insurance!!!
 
Al Geitzen did his tuning on a = dyno. =20 Al's smart,  even if we don't agree on BMEP and running turbo = rotors=20 in NA aircraft engines!!  (}:>) (Yea Al,  I luv = youse=20 too!!).   See,  Al now knows exactly how much = grunt=20 he's got from his 20B, and at what RPM.  No guesswork here. =  So=20 he can go to a prop manufacturer and get exactly the right prop = first=20 go.
 
So why is it all so hard to do = things=20 properly??? If bux are really tight, (and I don't think = that's a=20 problem,  otherwise we wouldn't be talking about buying a = couple of=20  Ellisons or a Cessna would we??!!)  Then at least tie = the plane=20 down and get a professional tuner to come out and tune the sucker = at the=20 airport,  and make sure it is reliable on the ground (lots of = high=20 speed taxi testing with the turkeys) before trying to soar with=20 eagles.
 
You are just asking for trouble = if the engine=20 isn't tuned properly,  and especially if all the = bugs=20 aren't ironed out of the EFI system and  fuel supply = etc. =20 Who actually knows what caused the fan to stop in Paul's = case?  Water=20 in the fuel,  blocked tank vent? Blocked fuel = filter?? =20 Pump failure??  Electrical failure??  Why blame the=20 EFI??
 
Anyway,  that's my handful = of very=20 abrasive industrial diamond paste for today.
 
Cheers,
 
Leon
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Tom=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, February = 09, 2005=20 3:13 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Bad day at=20 the airport

Paul, Ellison is a substitute for a carburetor, some kind = of 'new'=20 technology that's been around for some time and seems to be = simple &=20 successful and has a good reputation.   Avgas only, = like a=20 Cessna.    While there's no = venturi they still=20 recomend carb heat.    I'm sure there's a size that's = overkill=20 for the motor now on your bench.   They offer = units for=20 hp greater than most of these rotaries can put out.
 
Your statement of 'carburetor or Cessna' really rang a bell = with=20 me, kind of a wake-up call.  As for expense, for me I = wouldn't have=20 to deal with the cost or issues you're encountering with the=20 fuel-injection setup.  Microtech isn't that cheap and sofar = not=20 proven that reliable overall.
 
Rusty, why would you need more than=20 one?    Consider Tracy's current intake = setup for=20 his Renesis, essentially remove the injector hardware and = replace his=20 throttle plate with an Ellison.    
 
I've been sketching manifolds this morning and i can see = they'd not=20 be that difficult to make out of either aluminum or=20 steel.  
 
Warning, I have no first-hand experience with = Ellison's.  Just=20 what I've gleaned from magazines and the internet.
 
My .01cent
 
Tom
 


Paul <sqpilot@bellsouth.net>=20 wrote:
Does an Ellison throttle body = have=20 injectors, or is it a substitute for a carburetor?  Paul=20 Conner
 

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib=20 Jab's 'Second Term'

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG=20 Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - = Release Date:=20 2/7/2005

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG=20 Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release = Date:=20 2/7/2005

>>  Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>  Archive:  =20 http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG=20 Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release = Date:=20 2/7/2005
------=_NextPart_000_011A_01C50E87.7528A920-- --=======AVGMAIL-420A288C4EA4======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: "AVG certification" No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 --=======AVGMAIL-420A288C4EA4=======--