Return-Path: Received: from mailout2.pacific.net.au ([61.8.0.85] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c1) with ESMTP id 721517 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 06:33:04 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=61.8.0.85; envelope-from=peon@pacific.net.au Received: from mailproxy1.pacific.net.au (mailproxy1.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.86]) by mailout2.pacific.net.au (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j19BVUHn018740 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:31:30 +1100 Received: from ar1 (ppp2E41.dyn.pacific.net.au [61.8.46.65]) by mailproxy1.pacific.net.au (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with SMTP id j19BVKTu023878 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:31:22 +1100 Message-ID: <005901c50e9a$71cefc30$412e083d@ar1> From: "Leon" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: To Paul Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Microtech EFI and Tuning Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:28:11 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0056_01C50EF6.A382D010" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C50EF6.A382D010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Paul, Look mate, I really feel for you over there, and what's happening. I = wasn't having a "go" at you, or trying to belittle you. Far from it. = It was Tom's uninformed comment that really got up my nose, hence the = abrasive reply. I'm not normally quite as manic! Indeed, I just wish I could personally assist you, but we are 12,000 = miles apart. Personally, I don't think your fan stoppage has anything = to do with the ECU itself. It will be most probably be something silly = and trivial. I think in one of my previous email exchanges with you, I = made the point that diagnosis of faults has to be done in a systematic = fashion, but as I'm so far away, I can only give you broad guidelines. As it happens, I was talking to a mate of mine who writes C of As for = Experimental Aircraft here in Oz about your predicament this afternoon . = When I told him it was a composite aircraft, his comment was that = statistically, fuel filters have been known to clog between 4 and ten = hours on such aircraft with monotonous regularity. His advice is to = change the fuel filters every 2 hours until they don't have any more = debris in them. Apparently, (and I'm no expert in this but he is), all the left over = stuff in the composite fuel tanks (the dust, glass fibre, and the = coating material etc) will be flushed out and it does a real good job of = clogging the fuel filters(s). Doesn't matter how scrupulous you are = with cleanliness, you just can't get rid of ALL the junk. So two, = three or sometimes four fuel filter changes are "de rigueur" until they = are clear of such debris. So first thing would be to check the filters. = The other obvious thing is to check for water in your tanks. The third = obvious thing would be a dud fuse, or a loose wire somewhere. Those = are the three things I'd be looking at first. Then go looking for the = more esoteric things like blocked tank vents, crimped fuel lines, etc. Back to engine tuning. Unless we here in Oz are wired up totally = differently to engine tuners in the USA, I'm pretty sure you could go = to any professional dyno tuner, give him the MicroTech manual, pay him = a some bux to sit down on his butt and study it, and he would know = exactly how to tune the thing the very next day. See, if a dipstick = like me can learn to do it, (and I'm sure there are people in your = corner of the woods that are a LOT smarter than me), a good Yankee dyno = man will pick up on it in a flash. So you first need to find a friendly dyno tuner in your area who can = tune preferably either Motec, or Autronic EFI, but almost any = after-market EFI system will do. Anyone who can tune either of these = two units will find the Microtech primitive by comparison, and very = simple to tune. But tuning DOES require a basic understanding of engine = tuning procedures, and how engines ACTUALLY work. I'd say that ANY = good auto electrician/EFI person would get his head around the manual in = two or three hours. The prime requisite is that you know how EFI = systems work, understand Air/Fuel ratios, and can use a gas analyser = and/or Lambda meter. To get the engine tuned on an engine dyno, you would need to take the = whole engine, complete with manifolds, water pump etc. Most engine = dyno shops have their own fuel supply system for EFI, and their own = cooling systems for oil & water. You would also need to take your ECU, = the hand set, and the wiring loom. You would need to talk to the = particular shop concerned to see exactly what else they needed. By = using an engine dyno, you will find out exactly how much torque, and = how many BHP you have at each RPM point (normally every 500 RPM is = sufficient), just as Al did. However, we also have blokes over here who are mobile tuners. They = will come to you. There must be similar services in the USA. To set the = thing up pretty close, all that is needed is an accurate Air/Fuel ratio = meter and a 4 wire Lambda sensor. As I said, I can do a Microtech = pretty close to right in an hour, starting from scratch. As an aside, an Ellison might be just as much trouble. I heartily = concur with Bill Jepson who made the point that Ellisons are designed = for big bore, lazy piston engines. The vacuum signal, and the air = flow characteristics of a Lyc are very different to a Wankel. As I have = no idea how an Ellison meters it's fuel, I could be wrong, but I could = see you needing to put in some considerable time tuning the thing = anyway. As a ROUGH comparison, to run a 13B on an IDA or DCOE Weber, it needs = a minimum of 2 by 38 mm (1.5") chokes to provide around 180 BHP @ 6,500 = RPM. This would equate to around a single 54-55 mm choke as a bare = minimum. Anyway, if I can be of any more assistance, feel free to email me at = any time. But please, take care with your flying. I was scared = witless just reading about your last escapade!! You are obviously a = really cool customer, and an exceptional pilot. Cheers mate, Leon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Paul=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:39 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Microtech EFI and Tuning, was Re: [FlyRotary] = Re: Bad day at the airport Hi, Leon....thanks for responding. I am not quite sure I understand = what you meant about the risks I have taken so far. I have done many = full power runups on the ground with the nose of the aircraft up against = my van (with a large 8inch deep block of foam inbetween), and adjusted = the mixtures until I got the highest rpm's I could, then continued = leaning until the egt peaked, then started to surge, then richened it = back up until it ran smoothly and the egt's stabilized. I got up to = 5100 rpms static, and most people told me that the prop would most = likely unload in flight. How can I obtain more than 5100 rpm's unless I = fly it? I have 9.5 hours of smooth, uneventful flight, without the = engine ever missing a beat. I always climbed to at least 2500 feet = directly above the airport prior to making any mixture changes. My = primary concern with my engine is the lack of power, which you said was = because I have a turbo engine without a turbo, which would only give me = around 140 horsepower. After reading your recommendations, I am = presently building a street ported 4-port with NA rotors and housings.=20 I guess I don't understand your statement "Considering the risks = Paul has taken so far....he should take the engine out of the aircraft, = take it to a professional engine tuner and stick it on a dyno, and get = it properly tuned". If I take it off the aircraft, do I also take along = both fuel pumps, filters, hoses, surge tank, MicroTech ECU, handset, = exhaust system, wiring harness, etc? =20 As far as bucks, that is no problem. I would gladly spend the = money for safety. I talked to Dave Atkins several times regarding this. = He was somewhat helpful, but I kinda got the feeling I was taking him = away from his work. He is over 2000 miles away, so coming to Alabama to = tune if for me is not an option. I checked with the local Mazda = rebuilder, and he has rebuilt many rotaries, but has never used a = MicroTech ECU. I had no luck locating anyone familiar with the = MicroTech in the yellow pages of the phone book. That's one of the = reasons I am considering a carburetor....all of the A&P mechanics at the = airport are familiar with the aircraft carburetor....none of them are = familiar with the MicroTech. I would be more than happy to pay for the = help....I just can't find it. As far as MicroTech, I even contacted = MicroTech USA and asked them if they had the original factory default = settings so that I could reset my unit to factory default settings, and = they told me to contact the dealer I purchased it from. I asked Dave = Atkins, (I purchased it from Dave) and he does not have that = information. I called MicroTech back, and they informed me that was = because Atkins Rotary is not an authorized MicroTech dealer. Guess I am = out of luck. Thanks for all the support, MicroTech. =20 I wish to point out that I am in no way condemming the MicroTech = ECU. It was easy to install with it's pre-wired harness and excellent = instruction manual and schematics. It has more features than I will ever = use, to include data mapping. You can even limit rpm's, boost, turn on = auxillary cooling fans, change the timing, mixture, amount of = milliseconds the injectors are open, adjust how much extra fuel is = injected for cold start enrichment, hell, I think it will even cook your = breakfast and do the dishes. Finding someone familiar with the MicroTech = for assistance is another story, however. Paul Conner ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Leon=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 9:34 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Microtech EFI and Tuning, was Re: [FlyRotary] = Re: Bad day at the airport Hey Tom, Couldn't help reading your comment: "Microtech isn't that cheap and sofar not proven that reliable = overall." =20 That sort of comment REALLY, REALLY gets up my nose, especially = coming from someone who is inexperienced in these matters. I've been = selling and tuning these things since the early '90s!! I was also = involved in the early development of them for rotaries as far back as = '1992. So let's tackle your assertions: PRICE Firstly, price wise, they are $1250 AUD here in Oz. If anyone is = silly enough to pay double that in the US, then good luck!!! At = current exchange rates (76 cents), that's UNDER a grand USD. Plus = $85 AUD for a 3 Kg EMS courier bag, (gets there in a few days, ask Todd = Bartrim), plus whatever fees, taxes, and import duties you pay at = your end. That price includes the hand set. The LT-8/LTX-8 units, = without the handset, are $1050/1095 AUD (around $800/830 USD). For = another $150 AUD ($115 USD), you get the laptop dongle and software for = a full EIS display on a computer screen, and includes full Data Logging = etc. See:. http://www.microtech-efi.com/category/4.html So for Under $2,000 USD (plus taxes and import duties etc), you can = have COMPLETE redundancy (buy two units and one handset), plus a full = EIS display, plus Logging!!! Compare that with whatever else is = available on the market!!!! NOTHING even comes close price wise!!!! RELIABILTY Secondly, there have been literally THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of = units sold here and overseas over a period of 12 years, `and they are = VERY, VERY, VERY reliable. If you can't afford a Motec or an Autronic, = then the ONLY (in my opinion anyway) other reliable option is a = Microtech. But PLEASE don't blame the equipment when it is the = OPERATOR!!! Which brings me to the next point ... TUNABILITY Thirdly, as with any fuel injection/engine management system = (doesn't matter WHAT brand), you still need to have the engine tuned = correctly. I have already stressed on several occasions in my = correspondence to Paul Conner that he MUST get the engine tuned = properly. If he can't do it himself, then PAY a professional to do it. = It 'ain't hard if you know what you are doing. It's almost impossible = if you DON'T!! Get the Pro to check out the rest of the EFI system = while he's at it. You either understand how an engine works, or you don't. If you = don't, then pay a Pro to do it for you. Just like you don't attempt to = fix your own teeth, or set your own broken limbs, or remove your own = appendix!!!. =20 With the aid of a good Air/Fuel ratio meter, I can set up a = Microtech pretty close in about an hour. That's all it takes. The = instructions are clear and precise. But as engine tuning is a "black = art", it does require a certain amount of experience, and a great deal = of understanding. Tuning engines while flying is just asking for it!! = Which brings me to the next topic ... RISKY BEHAVIOUR Considering the risks Paul has taken so far, (the potential loss = his aircraft, not to mention others), and not to mention his own = life & limb (and possibly those of others), I am of the opinion that he = should take the engine out of the aircraft, take it to a professional = engine tuner and stick it on a dyno, and get it properly tuned. CHEAP = insurance!!! Al Geitzen did his tuning on a dyno. Al's smart, even if we don't = agree on BMEP and running turbo rotors in NA aircraft engines!! (}:>) = (Yea Al, I luv youse too!!). See, Al now knows exactly how much = grunt he's got from his 20B, and at what RPM. No guesswork here. So he = can go to a prop manufacturer and get exactly the right prop first go. So why is it all so hard to do things properly??? If bux are really = tight, (and I don't think that's a problem, otherwise we wouldn't be = talking about buying a couple of Ellisons or a Cessna would we??!!) = Then at least tie the plane down and get a professional tuner to come = out and tune the sucker at the airport, and make sure it is reliable on = the ground (lots of high speed taxi testing with the turkeys) before = trying to soar with eagles. You are just asking for trouble if the engine isn't tuned properly, = and especially if all the bugs aren't ironed out of the EFI system and = fuel supply etc. Who actually knows what caused the fan to stop in = Paul's case? Water in the fuel, blocked tank vent? Blocked fuel = filter?? Pump failure?? Electrical failure?? Why blame the EFI?? Anyway, that's my handful of very abrasive industrial diamond paste = for today. Cheers, Leon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 3:13 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bad day at the airport Paul, Ellison is a substitute for a carburetor, some kind of 'new' = technology that's been around for some time and seems to be simple & = successful and has a good reputation. Avgas only, like a Cessna. = While there's no venturi they still recomend carb heat. I'm sure = there's a size that's overkill for the motor now on your bench. They = offer units for hp greater than most of these rotaries can put out.=20 Your statement of 'carburetor or Cessna' really rang a bell with = me, kind of a wake-up call. As for expense, for me I wouldn't have to = deal with the cost or issues you're encountering with the fuel-injection = setup. Microtech isn't that cheap and sofar not proven that reliable = overall.=20 Rusty, why would you need more than one? Consider Tracy's = current intake setup for his Renesis, essentially remove the injector = hardware and replace his throttle plate with an Ellison. =20 I've been sketching manifolds this morning and i can see they'd = not be that difficult to make out of either aluminum or steel. =20 Warning, I have no first-hand experience with Ellison's. Just = what I've gleaned from magazines and the internet.=20 My .01cent Tom Paul wrote: Does an Ellison throttle body have injectors, or is it a = substitute for a carburetor? Paul Conner -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C50EF6.A382D010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Paul,
 
Look mate, I really feel for you = over=20 there,  and what's happening. I wasn't having a "go" at = you,  or=20 trying to belittle you.  Far from it.  It was Tom's uninformed = comment=20 that really got up my nose,  hence the abrasive reply.  I'm = not=20 normally quite as manic!
 
Indeed,  I just wish I could = personally assist=20 you,  but we are 12,000 miles apart.  Personally,  I = don't think=20 your fan stoppage has anything to do with the ECU itself.  It will = be most=20 probably be something silly and trivial.  I think in one of my = previous=20 email exchanges with you,  I made the point that diagnosis of = faults has to=20 be done in a systematic fashion,  but as I'm so far away,  I = can only=20 give you broad guidelines.
 
As it happens,  I was talking to a = mate of=20 mine who writes C of As for Experimental Aircraft here in Oz about your=20 predicament this afternoon .  When I told him it was a composite=20 aircraft,  his comment was that statistically,  fuel = filters have=20 been known to clog between 4 and ten hours on such aircraft = with=20 monotonous regularity. His advice is to change the fuel filters = every 2=20 hours until they don't have any more debris in them.
 
Apparently,  (and I'm no expert in = this but he=20 is),  all the left over stuff in the composite fuel tanks (the=20 dust, glass fibre,  and the coating material etc) will be = flushed=20 out and it does a real good job of clogging the fuel filters(s).  = Doesn't=20 matter how scrupulous you are with cleanliness,  you just can't get = rid of=20 ALL the junk.  So two,  three or sometimes four fuel filter = changes=20 are "de rigueur" until they are clear of such debris.  So first = thing would=20 be to check the filters.  The other obvious thing is to check for = water in=20 your tanks.  The third obvious thing would be a dud = fuse,  or a=20 loose wire somewhere.  Those are the three things I'd be looking at = first.  Then go looking for the more esoteric things like blocked = tank=20 vents,  crimped fuel lines,  etc.
 
Back to engine tuning.  = Unless we=20 here in Oz are wired up totally differently to engine tuners in the = USA,  I'm pretty sure you could go to any professional dyno=20 tuner,  give him the MicroTech manual,  pay him a some bux to = sit down=20 on his butt and study it,  and he would know exactly how = to tune=20 the thing the very next day.  See,  if a dipstick like me can = learn to=20 do it, (and I'm sure there are people in your corner of the woods = that are=20 a LOT smarter than me),  a good Yankee dyno man will pick = up on=20 it in a flash.
 
So you first need to find a friendly = dyno tuner in=20 your area who can tune preferably either Motec,  or Autronic=20 EFI,  but almost any after-market EFI system will do.  Anyone = who can=20 tune either of these two units will find the Microtech primitive by=20 comparison,  and very simple to tune. But tuning DOES require = a basic=20 understanding of engine tuning procedures,  and how engines = ACTUALLY=20 work.  I'd say that ANY good auto electrician/EFI person would get = his head=20 around the manual in two or three hours.  The prime requisite is = that you=20 know how EFI systems work,  understand Air/Fuel ratios,  and = can use a=20 gas analyser and/or Lambda meter.
 
To get the engine tuned on an = engine=20 dyno,  you would need to take the whole engine,  complete = with=20 manifolds,  water pump etc.  Most engine dyno shops have = their=20 own fuel supply system for EFI,  and their own cooling systems for = oil=20 & water. You would also need to take your ECU,  the hand=20 set,  and the wiring loom. You would need to talk to the = particular=20 shop concerned to see exactly what else they needed.  By using = an=20 engine dyno,  you will find out exactly how much torque,  and=20 how many BHP you have at each RPM point (normally every 500 RPM is=20 sufficient),  just as Al did.
 
However,  we also have blokes over = here who=20 are mobile tuners.  They will come to you. There must be = similar=20 services in the USA. To set the thing up pretty close,  all = that is=20 needed is an accurate Air/Fuel ratio meter and a 4 wire Lambda = sensor.  As=20 I said,  I can do a Microtech pretty close to = right in an=20 hour,  starting from scratch.
 
As an aside,  an Ellison might be = just as much=20 trouble.  I heartily concur with Bill Jepson who made the = point that=20 Ellisons are designed for big bore,  lazy piston engines.  The = vacuum=20 signal,  and the air flow characteristics of a Lyc are very = different to a=20 Wankel. As I have no idea how an Ellison meters it's fuel,  I = could be=20 wrong,  but I could see you needing to put in some considerable = time tuning=20 the thing anyway.
 
As a ROUGH comparison,  to = run a 13B on=20 an IDA or DCOE Weber,  it needs a minimum of 2 by 38 = mm=20 (1.5") chokes to provide around 180 BHP @ 6,500 RPM.  = This would=20 equate to around a single 54-55 mm choke as a bare minimum.
 
Anyway,  if I can be of any more=20 assistance,  feel free to email me at any time.  But = please, =20 take care with your flying.  I was scared witless just reading = about your=20 last escapade!!  You are obviously a really cool customer,  = and an=20 exceptional pilot.
 
Cheers mate,
 
Leon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Paul=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, = 2005 6:39=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Microtech EFI=20 and Tuning, was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Bad day at the airport

Hi, Leon....thanks for = responding.  I am not=20 quite sure I understand what you meant about the risks I have taken so = far.  I have done many full power runups on the ground with the = nose of=20 the aircraft up against my van (with a large 8inch deep block of foam=20 inbetween), and adjusted the mixtures until I got the highest rpm's I = could,=20 then continued leaning until the egt peaked, then started to surge, = then=20 richened it back up until it ran smoothly and the egt's = stabilized.  I=20 got up to 5100 rpms static, and most people told me that the prop = would most=20 likely unload in flight.  How can I obtain more than 5100 rpm's = unless I=20 fly it?  I have 9.5 hours of smooth, uneventful flight, without = the=20 engine ever missing a beat.  I always climbed to at least 2500 = feet=20 directly above the airport prior to making any mixture changes. My = primary=20 concern with my engine is the lack of power, which you said was = because I have=20 a turbo engine without a turbo, which would only give me around 140=20 horsepower. After reading your recommendations, I am presently = building a=20 street ported 4-port with NA rotors and housings.
     I guess I = don't=20 understand your statement "Considering the risks Paul has taken so = far....he=20 should take the engine out of the aircraft, take it to a professional = engine=20 tuner and stick it on a dyno, and get it properly tuned".  If I = take it=20 off the aircraft, do I also take along both fuel pumps, filters, = hoses, surge=20 tank, MicroTech ECU, handset, exhaust system, wiring harness, = etc? =20
      As far = as bucks,=20 that is no problem.  I would gladly spend the money for = safety. I=20 talked to Dave Atkins several times regarding this. He was somewhat = helpful,=20 but I kinda got the feeling I was taking him away from = his work. =20 He is over 2000 miles away, so coming to Alabama to tune if for = me is not=20 an option.  I checked with the local Mazda rebuilder, and he=20 has rebuilt many rotaries, but has never used a MicroTech=20 ECU.  I had no luck locating anyone familiar with the = MicroTech in=20 the yellow pages of the phone book. That's=20 one of the reasons I am considering a carburetor....all of the A&P = mechanics at the airport are familiar with the aircraft = carburetor....none of=20 them are familiar with the MicroTech. I would be more than happy to = pay for=20 the help....I just can't find it.  As far as MicroTech, I even = contacted=20 MicroTech USA and asked them if they had the original factory default = settings=20 so that I could reset my unit to factory default settings, and they = told me to=20 contact the dealer I purchased it from. I asked Dave Atkins, (I = purchased it=20 from Dave) and he does not have that information. I called MicroTech = back, and=20 they informed me that was because Atkins Rotary is not an authorized = MicroTech=20 dealer.  Guess I am out of luck.  Thanks for all the = support,=20 MicroTech. 
      I wish = to point=20 out that I am in no way condemming the MicroTech ECU. It was easy to = install=20 with it's pre-wired harness and excellent instruction manual and = schematics.=20 It has more features than I will ever use, to include data mapping. = You can=20 even limit rpm's, boost, turn on auxillary cooling fans, change the = timing,=20 mixture, amount of milliseconds the injectors are open, adjust how = much extra=20 fuel is injected for cold start enrichment, hell, I think it will even = cook=20 your breakfast and do the dishes. Finding someone familiar with the=20 MicroTech for assistance is another story, however.  = Paul=20 Conner
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Leon=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, = 2005 9:34=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Microtech EFI and=20 Tuning, was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Bad day at the airport

Hey Tom,
 
Couldn't help reading your=20 comment:
 
 "Microtech isn't that cheap and sofar not proven that = reliable=20 overall."  
 
That =20 sort of comment REALLY,  REALLY gets up my nose,  = especially=20 coming from someone who is inexperienced in these matters. I've = been=20 selling and tuning these things since the early '90s!!  I was=20 also involved in the early development of them for = rotaries as far=20 back as '1992.  So let's tackle your = assertions:
 
PRICE
 
Firstly,  price wise,  they are $1250 AUD = here in=20 Oz. If anyone is silly enough to pay double that in the = US,  then=20 good luck!!!  At current  exchange rates (76 cents),  = that's=20  UNDER a grand USD.  Plus $85 AUD for a 3 Kg EMS courier = bag,=20 (gets there in a few days,  ask Todd Bartrim),  plus = whatever=20 fees,  taxes,  and import duties you pay at your = end. =20 That price includes the hand set.  The LT-8/LTX-8 = units, =20 without the handset,  are $1050/1095 AUD (around $800/830=20 USD).   For another $150 AUD ($115 USD),  you get the = laptop=20 dongle and software for a full EIS display on a computer = screen, =20 and includes full Data Logging  etc. =20 See:.
 
http://www.microtec= h-efi.com/category/4.html
 
So for Under $2,000 USD (plus taxes = and import=20 duties etc),  you can have COMPLETE redundancy (buy two units = and one=20 handset),  plus a full EIS display,  plus Logging!!!  = Compare=20 that with whatever else is available on the market!!!!  NOTHING = even=20 comes close price wise!!!!
 
RELIABILTY
 
Secondly,  there have been literally THOUSANDS and=20 THOUSANDS of units sold here and overseas over a period of 12=20 years,  `and they are VERY,  VERY, =20 VERY reliable. If you can't afford a Motec or an = Autronic, =20 then the ONLY (in my opinion anyway) other reliable option is a = Microtech.  But PLEASE don't blame the equipment when it = is the=20 OPERATOR!!!  Which brings me to the next point ...
 
TUNABILITY
 
Thirdly,  as with any fuel injection/engine management = system=20 (doesn't matter WHAT brand),  you still need to have the engine = tuned=20 correctly.  I have already stressed on several occasions = in my=20 correspondence to Paul Conner that he MUST get the engine tuned = properly.  If he can't do it himself,  then PAY a = professional to=20 do it.  It 'ain't hard if you know what you are doing.  = It's=20 almost impossible if you DON'T!!  Get the Pro to check out the = rest of=20 the EFI system while he's at it.
 
You either understand how an engine works,  or you = don't.  If=20 you don't,  then pay a Pro to do it for you.  Just like = you don't=20 attempt to fix your own teeth,  or set your own broken = limbs,  or=20 remove your own appendix!!!. 
 
With the aid of a good Air/Fuel ratio meter,  I can set up = a=20 Microtech pretty close in about an hour.  That's all it=20 takes.  The instructions are clear and precise.  But as = engine=20 tuning is a "black art",  it does require a certain amount of=20 experience,  and a great deal of understanding.  Tuning = engines=20 while flying is just asking for it!!  Which brings me to the = next topic=20 ...
 
RISKY BEHAVIOUR
 
Considering the = risks Paul has taken=20 so far,  (the potential loss his aircraft,  not = to=20 mention others),  and  not to mention  his = own life=20 & limb (and possibly those of others),  I am of the opinion = that he=20 should take the engine out of the aircraft,  take it to a = professional=20 engine tuner and stick it on a dyno,  and get it properly=20 tuned. CHEAP insurance!!!
 
Al Geitzen did his tuning on a = dyno.  Al's=20 smart,  even if we don't agree on BMEP and running turbo rotors = in NA=20 aircraft engines!!  (}:>) (Yea Al,  I luv youse=20 too!!).   See,  Al now knows exactly how much = grunt he's=20 got from his 20B, and at what RPM.  No guesswork here.  So = he can=20 go to a prop manufacturer and get exactly the right prop first=20 go.
 
So why is it all so hard to do = things=20 properly??? If bux are really tight, (and I don't think that's = a=20 problem,  otherwise we wouldn't be talking about buying a = couple of=20  Ellisons or a Cessna would we??!!)  Then at least tie the = plane=20 down and get a professional tuner to come out and tune the sucker at = the=20 airport,  and make sure it is reliable on the ground (lots of = high=20 speed taxi testing with the turkeys) before trying to soar with=20 eagles.
 
You are just asking for trouble if = the engine=20 isn't tuned properly,  and especially if all the bugs = aren't ironed out of the EFI system and  fuel supply = etc. =20 Who actually knows what caused the fan to stop in Paul's case?  = Water=20 in the fuel,  blocked tank vent? Blocked fuel = filter??  Pump=20 failure??  Electrical failure??  Why blame the = EFI??
 
Anyway,  that's my handful of = very=20 abrasive industrial diamond paste for today.
 
Cheers,
 
Leon
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Tom=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, February = 09, 2005=20 3:13 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Bad day at=20 the airport

Paul, Ellison is a substitute for a carburetor, some kind of = 'new'=20 technology that's been around for some time and seems to be simple = &=20 successful and has a good reputation.   Avgas only, like = a=20 Cessna.    While there's no venturi they still = recomend carb heat.    I'm sure there's a size that's = overkill=20 for the motor now on your bench.   They offer units = for hp=20 greater than most of these rotaries can put out.
 
Your statement of 'carburetor or Cessna' really rang a bell = with me,=20 kind of a wake-up call.  As for expense, for me I wouldn't = have to=20 deal with the cost or issues you're encountering with the = fuel-injection=20 setup.  Microtech isn't that cheap and sofar not proven that = reliable=20 overall.
 
Rusty, why would you need more than=20 one?    Consider Tracy's current intake setup = for his=20 Renesis, essentially remove the injector hardware and replace his = throttle=20 plate with an Ellison.    
 
I've been sketching manifolds this morning and i can see = they'd not=20 be that difficult to make out of either aluminum or=20 steel.  
 
Warning, I have no first-hand experience with = Ellison's.  Just=20 what I've gleaned from magazines and the internet.
 
My .01cent
 
Tom
 


Paul <sqpilot@bellsouth.net> = wrote:
Does an Ellison throttle body = have=20 injectors, or is it a substitute for a carburetor?  Paul=20 Conner
 

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