Return-Path: Received: from imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net ([205.152.59.71] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c1) with ESMTP id 721397 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 02:41:01 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.152.59.71; envelope-from=sqpilot@bellsouth.net Received: from [209.214.45.57] by imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.11 201-253-122-130-111-20040605) with ESMTP id <20050209073925.OJKC2276.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net@[209.214.45.57]> for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 02:39:25 -0500 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.300 [265.8.6]); Wed, 09 Feb 2005 01:39:18 -0600 Message-ID: <00de01c50e7a$75a7b010$392dd6d1@paul52u7f5qyav> From: "Paul" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Microtech EFI and Tuning, was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Bad day at the airport Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 01:39:17 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-4209BE272408=======" --=======AVGMAIL-4209BE272408======= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00DB_01C50E48.2AF0B760" ------=_NextPart_000_00DB_01C50E48.2AF0B760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Leon....thanks for responding. I am not quite sure I understand = what you meant about the risks I have taken so far. I have done many = full power runups on the ground with the nose of the aircraft up against = my van (with a large 8inch deep block of foam inbetween), and adjusted = the mixtures until I got the highest rpm's I could, then continued = leaning until the egt peaked, then started to surge, then richened it = back up until it ran smoothly and the egt's stabilized. I got up to = 5100 rpms static, and most people told me that the prop would most = likely unload in flight. How can I obtain more than 5100 rpm's unless I = fly it? I have 9.5 hours of smooth, uneventful flight, without the = engine ever missing a beat. I always climbed to at least 2500 feet = directly above the airport prior to making any mixture changes. My = primary concern with my engine is the lack of power, which you said was = because I have a turbo engine without a turbo, which would only give me = around 140 horsepower. After reading your recommendations, I am = presently building a street ported 4-port with NA rotors and housings.=20 I guess I don't understand your statement "Considering the risks = Paul has taken so far....he should take the engine out of the aircraft, = take it to a professional engine tuner and stick it on a dyno, and get = it properly tuned". If I take it off the aircraft, do I also take along = both fuel pumps, filters, hoses, surge tank, MicroTech ECU, handset, = exhaust system, wiring harness, etc? =20 As far as bucks, that is no problem. I would gladly spend the = money for safety. I talked to Dave Atkins several times regarding this. = He was somewhat helpful, but I kinda got the feeling I was taking him = away from his work. He is over 2000 miles away, so coming to Alabama to = tune if for me is not an option. I checked with the local Mazda = rebuilder, and he has rebuilt many rotaries, but has never used a = MicroTech ECU. I had no luck locating anyone familiar with the = MicroTech in the yellow pages of the phone book. That's one of the = reasons I am considering a carburetor....all of the A&P mechanics at the = airport are familiar with the aircraft carburetor....none of them are = familiar with the MicroTech. I would be more than happy to pay for the = help....I just can't find it. As far as MicroTech, I even contacted = MicroTech USA and asked them if they had the original factory default = settings so that I could reset my unit to factory default settings, and = they told me to contact the dealer I purchased it from. I asked Dave = Atkins, (I purchased it from Dave) and he does not have that = information. I called MicroTech back, and they informed me that was = because Atkins Rotary is not an authorized MicroTech dealer. Guess I am = out of luck. Thanks for all the support, MicroTech. =20 I wish to point out that I am in no way condemming the MicroTech = ECU. It was easy to install with it's pre-wired harness and excellent = instruction manual and schematics. It has more features than I will ever = use, to include data mapping. You can even limit rpm's, boost, turn on = auxillary cooling fans, change the timing, mixture, amount of = milliseconds the injectors are open, adjust how much extra fuel is = injected for cold start enrichment, hell, I think it will even cook your = breakfast and do the dishes. Finding someone familiar with the MicroTech = for assistance is another story, however. Paul Conner ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Leon=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 9:34 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Microtech EFI and Tuning, was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: = Bad day at the airport Hey Tom, Couldn't help reading your comment: "Microtech isn't that cheap and sofar not proven that reliable = overall." =20 That sort of comment REALLY, REALLY gets up my nose, especially = coming from someone who is inexperienced in these matters. I've been = selling and tuning these things since the early '90s!! I was also = involved in the early development of them for rotaries as far back as = '1992. So let's tackle your assertions: PRICE Firstly, price wise, they are $1250 AUD here in Oz. If anyone is = silly enough to pay double that in the US, then good luck!!! At = current exchange rates (76 cents), that's UNDER a grand USD. Plus = $85 AUD for a 3 Kg EMS courier bag, (gets there in a few days, ask Todd = Bartrim), plus whatever fees, taxes, and import duties you pay at = your end. That price includes the hand set. The LT-8/LTX-8 units, = without the handset, are $1050/1095 AUD (around $800/830 USD). For = another $150 AUD ($115 USD), you get the laptop dongle and software for = a full EIS display on a computer screen, and includes full Data Logging = etc. See:. http://www.microtech-efi.com/category/4.html So for Under $2,000 USD (plus taxes and import duties etc), you can = have COMPLETE redundancy (buy two units and one handset), plus a full = EIS display, plus Logging!!! Compare that with whatever else is = available on the market!!!! NOTHING even comes close price wise!!!! RELIABILTY Secondly, there have been literally THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of units = sold here and overseas over a period of 12 years, `and they are VERY, = VERY, VERY reliable. If you can't afford a Motec or an Autronic, then = the ONLY (in my opinion anyway) other reliable option is a Microtech. = But PLEASE don't blame the equipment when it is the OPERATOR!!! Which = brings me to the next point ... TUNABILITY Thirdly, as with any fuel injection/engine management system (doesn't = matter WHAT brand), you still need to have the engine tuned correctly. = I have already stressed on several occasions in my correspondence to = Paul Conner that he MUST get the engine tuned properly. If he can't do = it himself, then PAY a professional to do it. It 'ain't hard if you = know what you are doing. It's almost impossible if you DON'T!! Get the = Pro to check out the rest of the EFI system while he's at it. You either understand how an engine works, or you don't. If you = don't, then pay a Pro to do it for you. Just like you don't attempt to = fix your own teeth, or set your own broken limbs, or remove your own = appendix!!!. =20 With the aid of a good Air/Fuel ratio meter, I can set up a Microtech = pretty close in about an hour. That's all it takes. The instructions = are clear and precise. But as engine tuning is a "black art", it does = require a certain amount of experience, and a great deal of = understanding. Tuning engines while flying is just asking for it!! = Which brings me to the next topic ... RISKY BEHAVIOUR Considering the risks Paul has taken so far, (the potential loss his = aircraft, not to mention others), and not to mention his own life & = limb (and possibly those of others), I am of the opinion that he should = take the engine out of the aircraft, take it to a professional engine = tuner and stick it on a dyno, and get it properly tuned. CHEAP = insurance!!! Al Geitzen did his tuning on a dyno. Al's smart, even if we don't = agree on BMEP and running turbo rotors in NA aircraft engines!! (}:>) = (Yea Al, I luv youse too!!). See, Al now knows exactly how much = grunt he's got from his 20B, and at what RPM. No guesswork here. So he = can go to a prop manufacturer and get exactly the right prop first go. So why is it all so hard to do things properly??? If bux are really = tight, (and I don't think that's a problem, otherwise we wouldn't be = talking about buying a couple of Ellisons or a Cessna would we??!!) = Then at least tie the plane down and get a professional tuner to come = out and tune the sucker at the airport, and make sure it is reliable on = the ground (lots of high speed taxi testing with the turkeys) before = trying to soar with eagles. You are just asking for trouble if the engine isn't tuned properly, = and especially if all the bugs aren't ironed out of the EFI system and = fuel supply etc. Who actually knows what caused the fan to stop in = Paul's case? Water in the fuel, blocked tank vent? Blocked fuel = filter?? Pump failure?? Electrical failure?? Why blame the EFI?? Anyway, that's my handful of very abrasive industrial diamond paste = for today. Cheers, Leon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 3:13 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bad day at the airport Paul, Ellison is a substitute for a carburetor, some kind of 'new' = technology that's been around for some time and seems to be simple & = successful and has a good reputation. Avgas only, like a Cessna. = While there's no venturi they still recomend carb heat. I'm sure = there's a size that's overkill for the motor now on your bench. They = offer units for hp greater than most of these rotaries can put out.=20 Your statement of 'carburetor or Cessna' really rang a bell with me, = kind of a wake-up call. As for expense, for me I wouldn't have to deal = with the cost or issues you're encountering with the fuel-injection = setup. Microtech isn't that cheap and sofar not proven that reliable = overall.=20 Rusty, why would you need more than one? Consider Tracy's current = intake setup for his Renesis, essentially remove the injector hardware = and replace his throttle plate with an Ellison. =20 I've been sketching manifolds this morning and i can see they'd not = be that difficult to make out of either aluminum or steel. =20 Warning, I have no first-hand experience with Ellison's. Just what = I've gleaned from magazines and the internet.=20 My .01cent Tom Paul wrote: Does an Ellison throttle body have injectors, or is it a = substitute for a carburetor? Paul Conner -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 ------=_NextPart_000_00DB_01C50E48.2AF0B760 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Leon....thanks for = responding.  I am not=20 quite sure I understand what you meant about the risks I have taken so=20 far.  I have done many full power runups on the ground with the = nose of the=20 aircraft up against my van (with a large 8inch deep block of foam = inbetween),=20 and adjusted the mixtures until I got the highest rpm's I could, then = continued=20 leaning until the egt peaked, then started to surge, then richened it = back up=20 until it ran smoothly and the egt's stabilized.  I got up to 5100 = rpms=20 static, and most people told me that the prop would most likely unload = in=20 flight.  How can I obtain more than 5100 rpm's unless I fly = it?  I=20 have 9.5 hours of smooth, uneventful flight, without the engine ever = missing a=20 beat.  I always climbed to at least 2500 feet directly above the = airport=20 prior to making any mixture changes. My primary concern with my engine = is the=20 lack of power, which you said was because I have a turbo engine without = a turbo,=20 which would only give me around 140 horsepower. After reading your=20 recommendations, I am presently building a street ported 4-port with NA = rotors=20 and housings.
     I guess I = don't understand=20 your statement "Considering the risks Paul has taken so far....he should = take=20 the engine out of the aircraft, take it to a professional engine tuner = and stick=20 it on a dyno, and get it properly tuned".  If I take it off the = aircraft,=20 do I also take along both fuel pumps, filters, hoses, surge = tank, MicroTech=20 ECU, handset, exhaust system, wiring harness, etc? 
      As far = as bucks,=20 that is no problem.  I would gladly spend the money for = safety. I=20 talked to Dave Atkins several times regarding this. He was somewhat = helpful, but=20 I kinda got the feeling I was taking him away from his work. =20 He is over 2000 miles away, so coming to Alabama to tune if for me = is not=20 an option.  I checked with the local Mazda rebuilder, and he=20 has rebuilt many rotaries, but has never used a MicroTech = ECU.  I=20 had no luck locating anyone familiar with the MicroTech in the yellow = pages of=20 the phone book. That's one of = the reasons I=20 am considering a carburetor....all of the A&P mechanics at the = airport are=20 familiar with the aircraft carburetor....none of them are familiar with = the=20 MicroTech. I would be more than happy to pay for the help....I just = can't find=20 it.  As far as MicroTech, I even contacted MicroTech USA and asked = them if=20 they had the original factory default settings so that I could reset my = unit to=20 factory default settings, and they told me to contact the dealer I = purchased it=20 from. I asked Dave Atkins, (I purchased it from Dave) and he does not = have that=20 information. I called MicroTech back, and they informed me that was = because=20 Atkins Rotary is not an authorized MicroTech dealer.  Guess I am = out of=20 luck.  Thanks for all the support, MicroTech. 
      I wish = to point out=20 that I am in no way condemming the MicroTech ECU. It was easy to install = with=20 it's pre-wired harness and excellent instruction manual and schematics. = It has=20 more features than I will ever use, to include data mapping. You can = even limit=20 rpm's, boost, turn on auxillary cooling fans, change the timing, = mixture, amount=20 of milliseconds the injectors are open, adjust how much extra fuel is = injected=20 for cold start enrichment, hell, I think it will even cook your = breakfast and do=20 the dishes. Finding someone familiar with the MicroTech for=20 assistance is another story, however.  Paul = Conner
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Leon
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, = 2005 9:34=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Microtech = EFI and=20 Tuning, was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Bad day at the airport

Hey Tom,
 
Couldn't help reading your = comment:
 
 "Microtech isn't that cheap and sofar not proven that reliable = overall."  
 
That =20 sort of comment REALLY,  REALLY gets up my nose,  = especially=20 coming from someone who is inexperienced in these matters. I've = been=20 selling and tuning these things since the early '90s!!  I was=20 also involved in the early development of them for = rotaries as far=20 back as '1992.  So let's tackle your = assertions:
 
PRICE
 
Firstly,  price wise,  they are $1250 AUD here = in=20 Oz. If anyone is silly enough to pay double that in the US,  = then=20 good luck!!!  At current  exchange rates (76 cents),  = that's=20  UNDER a grand USD.  Plus $85 AUD for a 3 Kg EMS courier = bag, (gets=20 there in a few days,  ask Todd Bartrim),  plus whatever = fees, =20 taxes,  and import duties you pay at your end.  That=20 price includes the hand set.  The LT-8/LTX-8 units,  = without=20 the handset,  are $1050/1095 AUD (around $800/830 = USD). =20  For another $150 AUD ($115 USD),  you get the laptop dongle = and software for a full EIS display on a computer screen,  = and=20 includes full Data Logging  etc.  = See:.
 
http://www.microtec= h-efi.com/category/4.html
 
So for Under $2,000 USD (plus taxes = and import=20 duties etc),  you can have COMPLETE redundancy (buy two units and = one=20 handset),  plus a full EIS display,  plus Logging!!!  = Compare=20 that with whatever else is available on the market!!!!  NOTHING = even=20 comes close price wise!!!!
 
RELIABILTY
 
Secondly,  there have been literally THOUSANDS and = THOUSANDS of=20 units sold here and overseas over a period of 12 years,  `and = they are=20 VERY,  VERY,  VERY reliable. If you can't afford a = Motec=20 or an Autronic,  then the ONLY (in my opinion anyway) other = reliable=20 option is a Microtech.  But PLEASE don't blame the equipment = when it=20 is the OPERATOR!!!  Which brings me to the next point ...
 
TUNABILITY
 
Thirdly,  as with any fuel injection/engine management = system=20 (doesn't matter WHAT brand),  you still need to have the engine = tuned=20 correctly.  I have already stressed on several occasions in = my=20 correspondence to Paul Conner that he MUST get the engine tuned=20 properly.  If he can't do it himself,  then PAY a = professional to do=20 it.  It 'ain't hard if you know what you are doing.  It's = almost=20 impossible if you DON'T!!  Get the Pro to check out the rest of = the EFI=20 system while he's at it.
 
You either understand how an engine works,  or you = don't.  If=20 you don't,  then pay a Pro to do it for you.  Just like you = don't=20 attempt to fix your own teeth,  or set your own broken = limbs,  or=20 remove your own appendix!!!. 
 
With the aid of a good Air/Fuel ratio meter,  I can set up a = Microtech pretty close in about an hour.  That's all it = takes. =20 The instructions are clear and precise.  But as engine tuning is = a "black=20 art",  it does require a certain amount of experience,  and = a great=20 deal of understanding.  Tuning engines while flying is just = asking for=20 it!!  Which brings me to the next topic ...
 
RISKY BEHAVIOUR
 
Considering the = risks Paul has taken so=20 far,  (the potential loss his aircraft,  not to = mention=20 others),  and  not to mention  his own life = &=20 limb (and possibly those of others),  I am of the opinion that he = should=20 take the engine out of the aircraft,  take it to a professional = engine=20 tuner and stick it on a dyno,  and get it properly = tuned. CHEAP=20 insurance!!!
 
Al Geitzen did his tuning on a = dyno.  Al's=20 smart,  even if we don't agree on BMEP and running turbo rotors = in NA=20 aircraft engines!!  (}:>) (Yea Al,  I luv youse=20 too!!).   See,  Al now knows exactly how much = grunt he's=20 got from his 20B, and at what RPM.  No guesswork here.  So = he can go=20 to a prop manufacturer and get exactly the right prop first = go.
 
So why is it all so hard to do things = properly???=20 If bux are really tight, (and I don't think that's a = problem, =20 otherwise we wouldn't be talking about buying a couple of =  Ellisons or a=20 Cessna would we??!!)  Then at least tie the plane down and get a=20 professional tuner to come out and tune the sucker at the = airport,  and=20 make sure it is reliable on the ground (lots of high speed taxi = testing with=20 the turkeys) before trying to soar with eagles.
 
You are just asking for trouble if = the engine=20 isn't tuned properly,  and especially if all the bugs=20 aren't ironed out of the EFI system and  fuel supply = etc.  Who=20 actually knows what caused the fan to stop in Paul's case?  Water = in the=20 fuel,  blocked tank vent? Blocked fuel filter??  Pump=20 failure??  Electrical failure??  Why blame the = EFI??
 
Anyway,  that's my handful of = very abrasive=20 industrial diamond paste for today.
 
Cheers,
 
Leon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, = 2005 3:13=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bad = day at the=20 airport

Paul, Ellison is a substitute for a carburetor, some kind of = 'new'=20 technology that's been around for some time and seems to be simple = &=20 successful and has a good reputation.   Avgas only, like a = Cessna.=20    While there's no venturi they still recomend = carb=20 heat.    I'm sure there's a size that's overkill for the = motor=20 now on your bench.   They offer units for hp greater = than=20 most of these rotaries can put out.
 
Your statement of 'carburetor or Cessna' really rang a bell = with me,=20 kind of a wake-up call.  As for expense, for me I wouldn't have = to deal=20 with the cost or issues you're encountering with the fuel-injection=20 setup.  Microtech isn't that cheap and sofar not proven that = reliable=20 overall.
 
Rusty, why would you need more than=20 one?    Consider Tracy's current intake setup = for his=20 Renesis, essentially remove the injector hardware and replace his = throttle=20 plate with an Ellison.    
 
I've been sketching manifolds this morning and i can see they'd = not be=20 that difficult to make out of either aluminum or = steel.  
 
Warning, I have no first-hand experience with Ellison's.  = Just=20 what I've gleaned from magazines and the internet.
 
My .01cent
 
Tom
 


Paul <sqpilot@bellsouth.net> = wrote:
Does an Ellison throttle body = have injectors,=20 or is it a substitute for a carburetor?  Paul = Conner
 

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Yahoo! Search presents - Jib=20 Jab's 'Second Term'

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG=20 Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release = Date:=20 2/7/2005
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