Return-Path: Received: from mailout2.pacific.net.au ([61.8.0.85] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c1) with ESMTP id 721248 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:42:39 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=61.8.0.85; envelope-from=peon@pacific.net.au Received: from mailproxy2.pacific.net.au (mailproxy2.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.87]) by mailout2.pacific.net.au (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j193fAHn028204 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:41:10 +1100 Received: from ar1 (ppp2818.dyn.pacific.net.au [61.8.40.24]) by mailproxy2.pacific.net.au (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with SMTP id j193bIwI017698 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:41:06 +1100 Message-ID: <00d901c50e58$c035f640$1828083d@ar1> From: "Leon" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Microtech EFI and Tuning, was Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Bad day at the airport Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:34:11 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D2_01C50EB4.6BC54640" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D2_01C50EB4.6BC54640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Tom, Couldn't help reading your comment: "Microtech isn't that cheap and sofar not proven that reliable = overall." =20 That sort of comment REALLY, REALLY gets up my nose, especially = coming from someone who is inexperienced in these matters. I've been = selling and tuning these things since the early '90s!! I was also = involved in the early development of them for rotaries as far back as = '1992. So let's tackle your assertions: PRICE Firstly, price wise, they are $1250 AUD here in Oz. If anyone is silly = enough to pay double that in the US, then good luck!!! At current = exchange rates (76 cents), that's UNDER a grand USD. Plus $85 AUD for = a 3 Kg EMS courier bag, (gets there in a few days, ask Todd Bartrim), = plus whatever fees, taxes, and import duties you pay at your end. = That price includes the hand set. The LT-8/LTX-8 units, without the = handset, are $1050/1095 AUD (around $800/830 USD). For another $150 = AUD ($115 USD), you get the laptop dongle and software for a full EIS = display on a computer screen, and includes full Data Logging etc. = See:. http://www.microtech-efi.com/category/4.html So for Under $2,000 USD (plus taxes and import duties etc), you can = have COMPLETE redundancy (buy two units and one handset), plus a full = EIS display, plus Logging!!! Compare that with whatever else is = available on the market!!!! NOTHING even comes close price wise!!!! RELIABILTY Secondly, there have been literally THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of units = sold here and overseas over a period of 12 years, `and they are VERY, = VERY, VERY reliable. If you can't afford a Motec or an Autronic, then = the ONLY (in my opinion anyway) other reliable option is a Microtech. = But PLEASE don't blame the equipment when it is the OPERATOR!!! Which = brings me to the next point ... TUNABILITY Thirdly, as with any fuel injection/engine management system (doesn't = matter WHAT brand), you still need to have the engine tuned correctly. = I have already stressed on several occasions in my correspondence to = Paul Conner that he MUST get the engine tuned properly. If he can't do = it himself, then PAY a professional to do it. It 'ain't hard if you = know what you are doing. It's almost impossible if you DON'T!! Get the = Pro to check out the rest of the EFI system while he's at it. You either understand how an engine works, or you don't. If you don't, = then pay a Pro to do it for you. Just like you don't attempt to fix = your own teeth, or set your own broken limbs, or remove your own = appendix!!!. =20 With the aid of a good Air/Fuel ratio meter, I can set up a Microtech = pretty close in about an hour. That's all it takes. The instructions = are clear and precise. But as engine tuning is a "black art", it does = require a certain amount of experience, and a great deal of = understanding. Tuning engines while flying is just asking for it!! = Which brings me to the next topic ... RISKY BEHAVIOUR Considering the risks Paul has taken so far, (the potential loss his = aircraft, not to mention others), and not to mention his own life & = limb (and possibly those of others), I am of the opinion that he should = take the engine out of the aircraft, take it to a professional engine = tuner and stick it on a dyno, and get it properly tuned. CHEAP = insurance!!! Al Geitzen did his tuning on a dyno. Al's smart, even if we don't = agree on BMEP and running turbo rotors in NA aircraft engines!! (}:>) = (Yea Al, I luv youse too!!). See, Al now knows exactly how much = grunt he's got from his 20B, and at what RPM. No guesswork here. So he = can go to a prop manufacturer and get exactly the right prop first go. So why is it all so hard to do things properly??? If bux are really = tight, (and I don't think that's a problem, otherwise we wouldn't be = talking about buying a couple of Ellisons or a Cessna would we??!!) = Then at least tie the plane down and get a professional tuner to come = out and tune the sucker at the airport, and make sure it is reliable on = the ground (lots of high speed taxi testing with the turkeys) before = trying to soar with eagles. You are just asking for trouble if the engine isn't tuned properly, and = especially if all the bugs aren't ironed out of the EFI system and fuel = supply etc. Who actually knows what caused the fan to stop in Paul's = case? Water in the fuel, blocked tank vent? Blocked fuel filter?? = Pump failure?? Electrical failure?? Why blame the EFI?? Anyway, that's my handful of very abrasive industrial diamond paste for = today. Cheers, Leon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 3:13 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bad day at the airport Paul, Ellison is a substitute for a carburetor, some kind of 'new' = technology that's been around for some time and seems to be simple & = successful and has a good reputation. Avgas only, like a Cessna. = While there's no venturi they still recomend carb heat. I'm sure = there's a size that's overkill for the motor now on your bench. They = offer units for hp greater than most of these rotaries can put out.=20 Your statement of 'carburetor or Cessna' really rang a bell with me, = kind of a wake-up call. As for expense, for me I wouldn't have to deal = with the cost or issues you're encountering with the fuel-injection = setup. Microtech isn't that cheap and sofar not proven that reliable = overall.=20 Rusty, why would you need more than one? Consider Tracy's current = intake setup for his Renesis, essentially remove the injector hardware = and replace his throttle plate with an Ellison. =20 I've been sketching manifolds this morning and i can see they'd not be = that difficult to make out of either aluminum or steel. =20 Warning, I have no first-hand experience with Ellison's. Just what = I've gleaned from magazines and the internet.=20 My .01cent Tom Paul wrote: Does an Ellison throttle body have injectors, or is it a substitute = for a carburetor? Paul Conner -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' ------=_NextPart_000_00D2_01C50EB4.6BC54640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Tom,
 
Couldn't help reading your = comment:
 
 "Microtech isn't that cheap and sofar not proven that reliable=20 overall."  
 
That  sort=20 of comment REALLY,  REALLY gets up my nose,  especially = coming=20 from someone who is inexperienced in these matters. I've been = selling and=20 tuning these things since the early '90s!!  I was = also involved in the=20 early development of them for rotaries as far back as '1992.  = So let's=20 tackle your assertions:
 
PRICE
 
Firstly, =20 price wise,  they are $1250 AUD here in Oz. If anyone is = silly=20 enough to pay double that in the US,  then good luck!!!  At=20 current  exchange rates (76 cents),  that's  UNDER a = grand=20 USD.  Plus $85 AUD for a 3 Kg EMS courier bag, (gets there in a few = days,  ask Todd Bartrim),  plus whatever fees,  = taxes,  and=20 import duties you pay at your end.  That price includes = the hand=20 set.  The LT-8/LTX-8 units,  without the = handset,  are=20 $1050/1095 AUD (around $800/830 USD).   For another $150 AUD = ($115=20 USD),  you get the laptop dongle and software for a full EIS = display=20 on a computer screen,  and includes full Data Logging  = etc. =20 See:.
 
http://www.microtec= h-efi.com/category/4.html
 
So for Under $2,000 USD (plus taxes and = import=20 duties etc),  you can have COMPLETE redundancy (buy two units and = one=20 handset),  plus a full EIS display,  plus Logging!!!  = Compare=20 that with whatever else is available on the market!!!!  NOTHING = even comes=20 close price wise!!!!
 
RELIABILTY
 
Secondly,  there have been literally THOUSANDS and = THOUSANDS of=20 units sold here and overseas over a period of 12 years,  `and they = are=20 VERY,  VERY,  VERY reliable. If you can't afford a = Motec or=20 an Autronic,  then the ONLY (in my opinion anyway) other = reliable=20 option is a Microtech.  But PLEASE don't blame the equipment = when it=20 is the OPERATOR!!!  Which brings me to the next point ...
 
TUNABILITY
 
Thirdly,  as with any fuel injection/engine management system = (doesn't=20 matter WHAT brand),  you still need to have the engine tuned=20 correctly.  I have already stressed on several occasions in my = correspondence to Paul Conner that he MUST get the engine tuned=20 properly.  If he can't do it himself,  then PAY a professional = to do=20 it.  It 'ain't hard if you know what you are doing.  It's = almost=20 impossible if you DON'T!!  Get the Pro to check out the rest of the = EFI=20 system while he's at it.
 
You either understand how an engine works,  or you = don't.  If you=20 don't,  then pay a Pro to do it for you.  Just like you don't = attempt=20 to fix your own teeth,  or set your own broken limbs,  or = remove your=20 own appendix!!!. 
 
With the aid of a good Air/Fuel ratio meter,  I can set up a = Microtech=20 pretty close in about an hour.  That's all it takes.  The = instructions are clear and precise.  But as engine tuning is a = "black=20 art",  it does require a certain amount of experience,  and a = great=20 deal of understanding.  Tuning engines while flying is just asking = for=20 it!!  Which brings me to the next topic ...
 
RISKY BEHAVIOUR
 
Considering the = risks Paul has taken so=20 far,  (the potential loss his aircraft,  not to = mention=20 others),  and  not to mention  his own life = & limb=20 (and possibly those of others),  I am of the opinion that he should = take=20 the engine out of the aircraft,  take it to a professional engine = tuner and=20 stick it on a dyno,  and get it properly tuned. CHEAP=20 insurance!!!
 
Al Geitzen did his tuning on a = dyno.  Al's=20 smart,  even if we don't agree on BMEP and running turbo rotors in = NA=20 aircraft engines!!  (}:>) (Yea Al,  I luv youse = too!!). =20  See,  Al now knows exactly how much grunt he's got from = his 20B,=20 and at what RPM.  No guesswork here.  So he can go to a prop=20 manufacturer and get exactly the right prop first go.
 
So why is it all so hard to do things = properly???=20 If bux are really tight, (and I don't think that's a problem,  = otherwise we wouldn't be talking about buying a couple of  Ellisons = or a=20 Cessna would we??!!)  Then at least tie the plane down and get a=20 professional tuner to come out and tune the sucker at the airport,  = and=20 make sure it is reliable on the ground (lots of high speed taxi testing = with the=20 turkeys) before trying to soar with eagles.
 
You are just asking for trouble if the = engine isn't=20 tuned properly,  and especially if all the bugs=20 aren't ironed out of the EFI system and  fuel supply = etc.  Who=20 actually knows what caused the fan to stop in Paul's case?  Water = in the=20 fuel,  blocked tank vent? Blocked fuel filter??  Pump=20 failure??  Electrical failure??  Why blame the = EFI??
 
Anyway,  that's my handful of very = abrasive=20 industrial diamond paste for today.
 
Cheers,
 
Leon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, = 2005 3:13=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Bad = day at the=20 airport

Paul, Ellison is a substitute for a carburetor, some kind of = 'new'=20 technology that's been around for some time and seems to be simple = &=20 successful and has a good reputation.   Avgas only, like a = Cessna.=20    While there's no venturi they still recomend = carb heat.=20    I'm sure there's a size that's overkill for the motor = now on=20 your bench.   They offer units for hp greater than most of = these=20 rotaries can put out.
 
Your statement of 'carburetor or Cessna' really rang a bell with = me, kind=20 of a wake-up call.  As for expense, for me I wouldn't have to = deal with=20 the cost or issues you're encountering with the fuel-injection = setup. =20 Microtech isn't that cheap and sofar not proven that reliable overall. =
 
Rusty, why would you need more than = one?    Consider=20 Tracy's current intake setup for his Renesis, essentially remove the = injector=20 hardware and replace his throttle plate with an=20 Ellison.    
 
I've been sketching manifolds this morning and i can see they'd = not be=20 that difficult to make out of either aluminum or = steel.  
 
Warning, I have no first-hand experience with Ellison's.  = Just what=20 I've gleaned from magazines and the internet.
 
My .01cent
 
Tom
 


Paul <sqpilot@bellsouth.net> = wrote:
Does an Ellison throttle body have = injectors,=20 or is it a substitute for a carburetor?  Paul = Conner
 

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib=20 Jab's 'Second Term' ------=_NextPart_000_00D2_01C50EB4.6BC54640--