Return-Path: Received: from out014.verizon.net ([206.46.170.46] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.5) with ESMTP id 557251 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 06 Dec 2004 04:26:51 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=206.46.170.46; envelope-from=rotary.coot@verizon.net Received: from [65.239.57.116] ([67.227.200.11]) by out014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20041206092616.PLRU1339.out014.verizon.net@[65.239.57.116]> for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2004 03:26:16 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: res0c5l1@incoming.verizon.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 01:31:16 -0800 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" From: Ken Welter Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: [FlyRotary]2002 crash of Taylor Coot w/13b Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1109797006==_ma============" X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [67.227.200.11] at Mon, 6 Dec 2004 03:26:14 -0600 --============_-1109797006==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I called NTSB to tell them what I knew and they said that my information was know good to them as I had no weight and balance numbers for them and that they believed Mazda mechanics findings. A friend that is the head of the flight standards office did call me and wanted info more for his own mind and said that it was out of his hands and in NTSB's hands and really they just fill in the blanks on the form for experimental's as we are just a thorn in there side. Ken >Ken, > Were you interviewed by the NTSB regarding the events and the installation? > >Dave > >Ken Welter wrote: > >>[FlyRotary] Re: [FlyRotary]2002 crash of Taylor Coot w/13b >> Yes I knew the pilot of that coot very well and the engine >>installation was a compleat abortion and the coot was tail heavy >>and I knew it by just looking at it despite what his calculation >>were. >> On the first taxi run that he got the nose wheel up it jumped in >>the air and with full stick forward he could not get the nose down >>so it stalled about 10 ft off the ground on landing it folded up >>two of the gear. >> He then repaired the plane and wanted me to fly it for him and I >>said no way its tail heavy and he still refused to believe me. >> He then went out and tried to fly it and right after liftoff the >>engine caught fire and quit, then the coot stalled and pancaked in >>and went up in a ball of fire. >> What I suspect the fire was from was a cheep ass piece of crap oil >>cooled that he got at a local auto parts store in which I told him >>would not holed up to the high oil pressure and volume out the >>Mazda. >> Another thing was that the oil cooler was mounted in the cowl >>ahead of the cheep exhaust system made from standard exhaust pipe >>and muffler from Napa which I told he would not hole up to the >>Mazda temps. >> This is really just the tip of the iceberg as I could go on and >>on, just say this plane was an accident looking for a place to >>happen. >> >> Ken Welter >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>Tom, as best I recall, Ken Welter reported that the Taylor Coot had an "aft >>>cg problem" before it flew and Ken had warned the pilot that the aft cg >>>could produce an unrecoverable stall condition. I believe he was also >>>warned that if the engine ever quite with that rear CG - an unrecoverable >>>stall would immediately happen. So with that initial aft CG condition and >>>the subsequent engine stoppage and resulting rearward drag caused by a >>>stopped propeller precluded any recovery from the induced stall. The >>>cause of the engine stoppage was reportedly due to an oil cooler (not stock >>>Mazda) that burst which led to a loss of the oil and the engine eventually >>>seizing - from which there was no recovery. >>> >>>Unfortunately the NTSB knew nothing about rotary engines, so they went to a >>>local Mazda dealer (who probably did not know much more) and because the oil >>>injection lines had been removed from the engine (and the side housings were >>>reportedly "blued" from the heat of no lubrication) the NTSB quickly jumped >>>on that as the cause of failure. Of course no injected oil might cause >>>your apex and possibly your corner seals to wear faster than normal but >>>would not cause the engine to seize. So the NTSB missed it on this one. >>> >>>Unfortunately, here was an accident that did not have to happen. But, when >>>a person disregards well intended warnings - there is little anyone can do. >>> >>>Ed Anderson >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Tom" >>>To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >>> >>>Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 9:38 PM >>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: [FlyRotary]2002 crash of Taylor Coot w/13b >>> >>> >>>> Perry, now that you describe it, seems that I did read something about an >>>> incident like that somewhere. Yes, I noticed the hole in the NTSB last >>>> paragraph. >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> --- Perry Mick wrote: >>>> > If Ken Welter is still on this list, he can fill you in. Basically the >>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________________________________ >>>> Do you Yahoo!? >>>> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! >>>> http://my.yahoo.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> >> Archive: >>>>http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> Archive: >>>>>http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >> > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >>> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html --============_-1109797006==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" [FlyRotary] Re: [FlyRotary]2002 crash of Taylor Coot w/13b
   I called NTSB to tell them what I knew and they said that my information was know good to them as I had no weight and balance numbers for them and that they believed Mazda mechanics findings.
 A friend that is the head of the flight standards office did call me and wanted info more for his own mind and said that it was out of his hands and in NTSB's hands and really they just fill in the blanks on the form for experimental's as we are just a thorn in there side.
 Ken




Ken,
   Were you interviewed by the NTSB regarding the events and the installation?
 
Dave

Ken Welter wrote:
[FlyRotary] Re: [FlyRotary]2002 crash of Taylor Coot w/13b
  Yes I knew the pilot of that coot very well and the engine installation was a compleat abortion and the coot was tail heavy and I knew it by just looking at it despite what his calculation were.
 On the first taxi run that he got the nose wheel up it jumped in the air and with full stick forward he could not get the nose down so it stalled about 10 ft off the ground on landing it folded up two of the gear.
 He then  repaired the plane and wanted me to fly it for him and I said no way its tail heavy and he still refused to believe me.
 He then went out and tried to fly it and right after liftoff the engine caught fire and quit, then the coot stalled and pancaked in and went up in a ball of fire.
 What I suspect the fire was from was a cheep ass piece of crap oil cooled that he got at a local auto parts store in which I told him would not holed up to the high oil pressure and volume out the Mazda.
 Another thing was that the oil cooler was mounted in the cowl ahead of the cheep exhaust system made from standard exhaust pipe and muffler from Napa which  I told he would not hole up to the Mazda temps.
  This is really just the tip of the iceberg as I could go on and on, just say this plane was an accident looking for a place to happen.
 
 Ken Welter







Tom, as best I recall, Ken Welter reported that the Taylor Coot had an "aft
cg problem" before it flew and Ken had warned the pilot that the aft cg
could produce an unrecoverable stall condition.  I believe he was also
warned that if the engine ever quite with that rear CG - an unrecoverable
stall would immediately happen.  So with that initial aft CG condition and
the subsequent engine stoppage and resulting rearward drag caused by a
stopped propeller   precluded any recovery from the induced stall.  The
cause of the engine stoppage was reportedly due to an oil cooler (not stock
Mazda) that burst which led to a loss of the oil and the engine eventually
seizing - from which there was no recovery.

Unfortunately the NTSB knew nothing about rotary engines, so they went to a
local Mazda dealer (who probably did not know much more) and because the oil
injection lines had been removed from the engine (and the side housings were
reportedly "blued" from the heat of no lubrication) the NTSB quickly jumped
on that as  the cause of failure.  Of course no injected oil might cause
your apex and possibly your corner seals to wear faster than normal but
would not cause the engine to seize.  So the NTSB missed it on this one.

Unfortunately, here was an accident that did not have to happen.  But, when
a person disregards well intended warnings - there is little anyone can do.

Ed Anderson


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom" <tomtugan@yahoo.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 9:38 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: [FlyRotary]2002 crash of Taylor Coot w/13b


> Perry, now that you describe it, seems that I did read something about an
> incident like that somewhere.  Yes, I noticed the hole in the NTSB last
> paragraph.
> Tom
>
> --- Perry Mick <pjmick@viclink.com> wrote:
> > If Ken Welter is still on this list, he can fill you in. Basically the
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
> http://my.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> >>  Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >>  Archive:   http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>



>>  Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>  Archive:   http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html

>>  Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/

>>  Archive:   http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html

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