Return-Path: Received: from mxsf23.cluster1.charter.net ([209.225.28.223] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.5) with ESMTP id 555792 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 04 Dec 2004 09:42:12 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.225.28.223; envelope-from=cardmarc@charter.net Received: from mxip04.cluster1.charter.net (mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.134]) by mxsf23.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iB4EffHl008671 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 2004 09:41:41 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO homeoffice) (68.191.212.162) by mxip04.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 04 Dec 2004 09:41:41 -0500 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.87,123,1099285200"; d="scan'217,208?gif'217,208,147"; a="476854194:sNHT36247232" From: "Marc Wiese" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: Ignition systems-pressure sensing Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 08:41:36 -0600 Message-ID: <000c01c4da0f$5eb98e40$6502a8c0@homeoffice> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C4D9DD.141F1E40" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C4D9DD.141F1E40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01C4D9DD.141F1E40" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C4D9DD.141F1E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Never heard of spark control in that manner but GAMI www.gami.com developed an aircraft control system wherein the system contains a pressure sensor that determines the combustion pressures and adjusts the spark duration and timing from that input. That way they can run 100 oct engines, even turbo charged ones, on lower 90's car octane gas, amongst other considerations. I believe they are about to market the system to experimentals in 2005 and are aiming to certify it. It is on the link for product news, it is called Prism. Here's their blurb. BTW, these people are the real thing-no fly by night (so to speak) operation. You can take classes on engine management from them, using their engine testing cells, and learn a lot by attending one. GAMI's Electronic Ignition, PRISMT _____ PRISMT (Pressure Reactive Intelligent Spark Management) Features: .Optimized Spark Timing to achieve maximum brake torque .Simple, fewer moving parts, fiber optic design .Increased horsepower at all power settings .Smoother engine operation- reduces coefficient of variation of combustion- even on lean mixtures .More efficient engine operation-CDI produces larger spark at optimized time BTDC .Replaces both magnetos- no overhaul required prior to TBO .Fully redundant design- proven electronic durability with quad redundant ignition .Includes GAMI's SupplenatorT Supplemental Alternator- back-up power to primary alternator and battery and GAMI's PDUT Panel Display Unit .Automatic detection/prevention of detonation .Maintains lower peak cylinder pressures- reduced loads on power train components, longer engine life .Allows for the future use of lower octane, unleaded fuels. This is the only system on the millennial horizon that is inherently compatible with lower octane, unleaded fuels. .ChampionR ignition components (spark plugs, wires, coils) .Optional panel display of actual real-time horsepower and torque .Optional digital tachometer .Optional extensive on-board engine diagnostic capability .Improved fuel economy- lower BSFCs than previously possible .Significantly lower EGTs/TITs for reduced exhaust system maintenance FAA STC certification expected soon! 2800 Airport Road - Hangar A Ada, Oklahoma 74820 phone: 580.436.4833 fax: 580.436.6622 toll-free: 1-888-FLY-GAMI comments@gami.com Marc W. -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of rijakits Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 6:27 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: (unshrouded plug ?)required wrench Anyone familiar with the old Jacobs Electronic Ignition systems (Ultra Team)? It used to be only thing that kept my oil and fuel guzzling Suzuki alive! If I changed back for the factory ignition the engine would start to run on 3 cylinders in a very short time (2 min). Jacobs claimed that his system used the sparkplug as a " in cylinder"-sensor and that the computer in the system would adjust the spark on the fly. This way the voltage went way up for "ignition" :) and then was reduced according to the requirements in the cylinder, so as to avoid over current and too hot a spark. In his book " The Doctors guide to electronic ignition" he mentions, that a spark can be too intensive and actually blow out a recently ignited flamekernel. We are talking about the stage BEFORE the little fireball reaches a diameter of 2mm, from where on it is considered a stable combustion. Until that point things are not certain at all and missfires occure in this stage. He also mentions that it would be a breakthrough if it would be possible to have a sparkplug gap of 2 mm to start the kernel at that stable diameter, however at that gap the voltage would have to be so high, it would be impossible to isolate the ignition parts in the confines of a engine or engine room... Jacobs sold the company (it is still called Jacobs though...), but as far as I understand their systems use multiple spark now (like MSD). I imagine this kind of system would be great for the rotary as the environment in the combustion area changes a lot and worse than piston engines. Does anyone know if there is a similar system on the market (using the plug as a sensor and adjusting the spark accordingly?) Thomas J. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Dube To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 11:15 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: (unshrouded plug ?)required wrench They should work fine. I just felt that for a system set up for maximum spark power, I didn't want to have a big resistance in the plug. I have no idea whether you would ever notice the difference. I expect Paul Yaw would. The resistor is there as a "ballast" to limit the peak current. You need high voltage to strike the arc, but once the arc has formed, the resistance across it is low and it takes very little voltage to sustain it. Without the resistor in the plug, very high current flows, eroding the electrode and shortening the life of the plug. Also, the high current produces a high magnetic field, causing radio interference. The resistor also helps to increase the duration of the spark. There is a fixed amount of energy stored in the coil for each spark. Without the resistor, a high current flows. The energy is then quickly spent, resulting in a shorter spark duration. Additionally, you can "burn out" some types of spark plug wires by using non-resistor spark plugs. The wire can't handle the extra current and goes open-circuit. Most cars have "magnetic suppression" type spark plug wire these days. It is a long coil of thin wire wrapped around insulating fibers. It acts as an inductor in the circuit. This tends to make the current much more constant during each spark. With electronic ignition, it is not uncommon to have both magnetic suppression wire AND resistor plugs. They act in concert to limit peak current, to smooth out the average current, and to reduce radio (and computer) interference. If the coils and ignition control module you have selected were designed to use magnetic suppression wires and resistor plugs, you would probably be smart in continuing to use these type plugs and wires. The higher peak current from non-resistor plugs can also damage the coil or ICM if they are not designed for that use. Just my eight cents. :^) >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C4D9DD.141F1E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Never heard of spark control in = that manner but GAMI www.gami.com = developed an aircraft control system wherein the system contains a pressure sensor = that determines the combustion pressures and adjusts the spark duration and = timing from that input. That way they can run 100 oct engines, even turbo charged ones, on = lower 90’s car octane gas, amongst other considerations. I believe they = are about to market the system to experimentals = in 2005 and are aiming to certify it. It is on the link for product news, it is = called Prism. Here’s their blurb. BTW, these people are the real thing-no = fly by night (so to speak) operation. You can take classes on engine management = from them, using their engine testing cells, and learn a lot by attending = one.

 

GAMI's Electronic Ignition, PRISM™

PRISM™
(Pressure Reactive Intelligent Spark Management)

Features: •Optimized Spark Timing to = achieve maximum brake torque

•Simple, fewer moving parts, fiber optic design

•Increased horsepower at all power settings

•Smoother engine operation- reduces coefficient of variation of combustion- even on lean mixtures

•More efficient engine operation-CDI produces larger spark at = optimized time BTDC

•Replaces both magnetos- no overhaul required prior to TBO

•Fully redundant design- proven electronic durability with quad = redundant ignition

•Includes GAMI's Supplenator™ Supplemental Alternator- back-up power to primary alternator and battery = and GAMI's PDU™ Panel Display Unit

•Automatic detection/prevention of detonation

•Maintains lower peak cylinder pressures- reduced loads on power = train components, longer engine life

•Allows for the future use of lower octane, unleaded fuels. This = is the only system on the millennial horizon that is inherently compatible with = lower octane, unleaded fuels.

•Champion® ignition components (spark plugs, wires, coils) =

•Optional panel display of actual real-time horsepower and = torque

•Optional digital tachometer

•Optional extensive on-board engine diagnostic capability

•Improved fuel economy- lower BSFCs = than previously possible

•Significantly lower EGTs/TITs for = reduced exhaust system maintenance

FAA STC certification expected soon!


2800 Airport Road - Hangar A
Ada, Oklahoma  74820<= b>
phone: 580.436.4833   fax: 580.436.6622   toll-free: = 1-888-FLY-GAMI

comments@gami.com=

 

 

Marc = W.

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of rijakits
Sent: Friday, December = 03, 2004 6:27 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: (unshrouded plug ?)required wrench

 

 

Anyone familiar with the = old Jacobs Electronic Ignition systems (Ultra Team)?

It used to be only thing = that kept my oil and fuel guzzling Suzuki alive! If I changed back for the = factory ignition the engine would start to run on 3 cylinders in a very short = time (2 min).

Jacobs claimed that his = system used the sparkplug as a " in cylinder"-sensor and that the computer = in the system would adjust the spark on the fly.

 

This way the voltage went = way up for "ignition" :) and then was reduced according to the = requirements in the cylinder, so as to avoid over current and too hot a spark. In his = book " The Doctors guide to electronic ignition" he mentions, that = a spark can be too intensive and actually blow out a recently ignited = flamekernel. We are talking about the stage BEFORE the little fireball reaches a = diameter of 2mm, from where on it is considered a stable combustion. Until that = point things are not certain at all and missfires occure in this = stage.

He also mentions that it = would be a breakthrough if it would be possible to have a sparkplug gap of 2 mm to = start the kernel at that stable diameter, however at that gap the voltage = would have to be so high, it would be impossible to isolate the ignition parts = in the confines of a engine or engine room...

 

Jacobs sold the company (it = is still called Jacobs though...), but as far as I understand their systems use = multiple spark now (like MSD).

I imagine this kind of = system would be great for the rotary as the environment in the combustion area = changes a lot and worse than piston engines.

 

Does anyone know if there = is a similar system on the market (using the plug as a sensor and adjusting the spark accordingly?)

 

Thomas = J.

----- Original Message = -----

From: Bill = Dube

Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 11:15 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: (unshrouded plug ?)required wrench

 


They should work fine.  I just felt that for a = system set up for maximum spark power, I didn't want to have a big resistance = in the plug.  I have no idea whether you would ever notice the = difference.  I expect Paul Yaw would.


        The = resistor is there as a "ballast" to limit the peak current. You need high = voltage to strike the arc, but once the arc has formed, the resistance across it = is low and it takes very little voltage to sustain it. Without the resistor in = the plug, very high current flows, eroding the electrode and shortening the = life of the plug. Also, the high current produces a high magnetic field, causing = radio interference.

        The = resistor also helps to increase the duration of the spark. There is a fixed = amount of energy stored in the coil for each spark. Without the resistor, a high = current flows. The energy is then quickly spent, resulting in a shorter spark = duration.

        Additional= ly, you can "burn out" some types of spark plug wires by using non-resistor spark plugs. The wire can't handle the extra current and = goes open-circuit.

        Most cars = have "magnetic suppression" type spark plug wire these days. It is = a long coil of thin wire wrapped around insulating fibers. It acts as an = inductor in the circuit. This tends to make the current much more constant during = each spark.

        With = electronic ignition, it is not uncommon to have both magnetic suppression wire AND resistor plugs. They act in concert to limit peak current, to smooth out = the average current, and to reduce radio (and computer) interference.

        If the = coils and ignition control module you have selected were designed to use magnetic suppression wires and resistor plugs, you would probably be smart in = continuing to use these type plugs and wires. The higher peak current from = non-resistor plugs can also damage the coil or ICM if they are not designed for that = use.

        Just my = eight cents. :^)

>>  Homepage:  =
http://www.flyrotary.com/
 
>>  Archive:   =
http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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