Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.100] (HELO ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2) with ESMTP id 381321 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:33:46 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.100; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from EDWARD (cpe-069-132-183-211.carolina.rr.com [69.132.183.211]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i7RJXEPg004218 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:33:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <005001c48c6c$b3af4020$2402a8c0@EDWARD> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine run Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:33:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004D_01C48C4B.2C72BF90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C48C4B.2C72BF90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageOf all the things you mentioned, Al. I agree with your concern = about the oil flow to the drive. Here is what I have done in the past. = I removed the line that drains the oil back into the sump and hook it up = to a bottle (a quart size or so will do, small neck is best). Stick the = hose into the bottle and secure them both so prop blast want have oil = all over you, your aircraft and the garage. Then fire up the engine and = run it for 1 minute - low rpm is fine. You should immediately (within = 5-10second) see oil start to flow. You should have a minimum of 1- 1 = 1/2 pints for a minute. If you have that or over then you should be OK. Ed Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 2:42 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine run Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine run Al, sorry to hear about your trials and tribulations. But, this group = should be able to help you resolve them - by offering suggestions if = nothing else. I'd guess it's pretty normal. Just unexpected and too many issues at = once. Could you refresh my poor memory about your fuel set up. How many = injectors, what type (Low high impedance?) what size, where located? I = really don't think the 550 are the cause. I have run with them and the = only problem was the engine was not quite as smooth as with the = 460cc/min it was really not bad. Certainly functional and flyable and = that with a 2 rotor. =20 See attached photo. I have the stock 20B fuel rail at the primary. I = had RC Engineering clean and measure flow, and they were 570 cc/min. (I = thought they were 550's). There are three MS injectors in the TWM TB = that are 50 lbs/hr, which is about 525 cc/min. All saturation type. I = don't think that's the issue either; based on the dyno runs. We didn't = have much issue at the stage point, although it was a bit tough to keep = it steady right at that point. 2000 rpm and 13" sounds low to me, also, but then you have three = rotor's "sucking" air out of the manifold rather than two. So, I = suppose it could hold the manifold pressure down a bit better. I = generally see somewhere around 15-17" at 2000. For the same power/rotor I'd guess the 2 and 3-rotors would have about = the same MAP. And I guess my 66" 3-blade should need something like the = same power at the same rpm. Based on what little dyno data I have at = lower rpm, the number seems too low; but can't I believe the EM2 = reading? It's all I've got. I presume you EGT temps are Celsius? Wha-a? No. I think around 1100F is OK at 2000 and low power. No? I have a heated borsch O2 sensor as well and yes, it reads 0-1volt = with 0 being lean and 1 being rich. I presume its not one of those = expensive so called "broad band" sensors that are used on some autos = today?? They generally run close to $200 or more. It's a three lead one that I picked out at the auto parts store for = about $55. I think it is used in the Miata, and in some Fords. So if you would bring me up to speed on the induction system, I'll = hopefully be able to offer some suggestions Thanks, ED. If you are patient enough to read the other two responses = to Dave and Rusty ther may be some other relevant info there. One of = the big concerns right now is about oil flow to the redrive. I have no = idea why it wouldn't be flowing, but why is the line not getting hot? I = don't want to run further it there is no oil flow going to the drive. = As I recall, there is no restrictor in the RD-1B, and that the oil goes = into a little gallery in the rear bearing (or something like that). = Also, I have about 1" gear play, measured at the tip of my 66" prop. Is = that normal? Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 9:14 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Engine run I guess I have now done what I'd consider the first serious runs of = the engine on the plane, and I have so many question marks in my head, = it's hard to know what to address next. The biggest issue is; I cannot get smooth running up to about 2200 = rpm; which is as far as I went. At about 2000 I adjusted mixture from = too lean to too rich, and nowhere does it smooth out completely - some = roughness, mild surging. At lower rpm, 1000 - 1500 it is quite rough = and unsteady, which is disconcerting in itself, but worrisome when it = goes through periods of torsional vibration with the reduction gear = backlash, which is noisy and shakes the plane. Of course it brings back the recent discussions of you other guys = with the 550 injectors in the primary. I kind of glossed over that = because I recalled smooth running on the dyno. In hindsight now, I = think the operator figured out early-on that to keep it smooth he needed = to keep some load on - just turn the load knob a little and it was fine. = And on the dyno when it wasn't running smooth, no big deal - no redrive = to backlash, and the engine is bolted down in the next room. You could = just hear that it wasn't running smooth. Still, I suspect something is different now; and perhaps you'll = indulge my dumping, and pass on a clue or two. At 2000 I'm seeing a 13.1 MAP reading. Seems low to me. Is it? = That puts it below the stage point, yet when I turned off the primary = injectors, it continued to run; just rougher. Same effect turning off = the secondaries. Hotest EGT was at about 1100, lowest about 980. = Bigger spread than I ever saw on the dyno runs, but the data we took = there was always under higher load. Fuel pressure reads 50 psi, TWM tells me it came to me preset at = 43.5. When the coolant temp read 125 when the pipes and rad tanks were = just about too hot to touch, which I guessed to be more like 140. I'm = suspicious of just about every readout. Later when the WT read 140, the = CHT TC that measure temps in and out of the rads were reading about 85. = I believed backup gauges were unnecessary. Oh yeah; the mixture bar reads just about full scale all the time, = even when the engine is about to die from being too lean. I have a = different heated Bosch sensor, which I assumed would have the same = 0-1volt range. Maybe not. Is the sensor output voltage low when lean = or rich? With the engine off and sensor heated I measured .052 volts. = I tried to get a reading with the engine running, but all I got was = about .025 and I can't be certain I had contact with the lead - and with = the prop spinning so close by I didn't spend too much time trying. One other major concern. With hot oil (150) at the filter block = where the feed goes to the redrive, the =BC" Al line to the redrive was = hardly above ambient temp a minute or two after shutdown; suggesting = little or no flow was going there. Oil pressure was in the 90's. I'm = not aware that there is an orifice in there. This has me a bit baffled. Oil pressure, coolant pressure, Oil temp seem fine. Maybe I should go to a movie. Al (not ecstatic) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C48C4B.2C72BF90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Of all the things you mentioned, = Al.  I agree=20 with your concern about the oil flow to the drive.  Here is what I = have=20 done in the past.  I removed the line that drains the oil back into = the=20 sump and hook it up to a bottle (a quart size or so will do, small neck = is=20 best).  Stick the hose into the bottle and secure them both so prop = blast=20 want have oil all over you, your aircraft and the garage.  Then = fire up the=20 engine and run it for 1 minute - low rpm is fine.  You should = immediately=20  (within 5-10second) see oil start to flow.  You should have a = minimum=20 of 1- 1 1/2 pints for a minute.
 
If you have that or  over = then you should=20 be OK.
 
Ed
 
 
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al = Gietzen=20
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 = 2:42=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Engine = run

 

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Engine run

 

Al, sorry to hear about = your=20 trials and tribulations.  But, this group should be able to help = you=20 resolve them - by offering suggestions if nothing = else.

 

I=92d = guess it=92s=20 pretty normal.  Just unexpected and too many issues at=20 once.

 

Could you refresh my = poor memory=20 about your fuel set up.  How many injectors, what type (Low high=20 impedance?) what size, where located?  I really don't think the = 550 are=20 the cause.  I have run with them and the only = problem was  the=20 engine was not quite as smooth as with the 460cc/min it was really not = bad.  Certainly functional and flyable and that with a 2 = rotor. =20

 

See = attached=20 photo.  I have the stock 20B fuel rail at the primary.  I = had RC=20 Engineering clean and measure flow, and they were 570 cc/min.  (I = thought=20 they were 550=92s).  There are three MS injectors in the TWM TB = that are 50=20 lbs/hr, which is about 525 cc/min.  All saturation type.  I = don=92t=20 think that=92s the issue either; based on the dyno runs.  We = didn=92t have=20 much issue at the stage point, although it was a bit tough to keep it = steady=20 right at that point.

 

2000 rpm and 13" sounds = low to me,=20 also, but then you have three rotor's "sucking" air out of the = manifold rather=20 than two.  So, I suppose it could hold the manifold pressure down = a bit=20 better.  I generally see somewhere around 15-17" at=20 2000.

 

For the = same=20 power/rotor I=92d guess the 2 and 3-rotors would have about the same = MAP.=20  And I guess my 66=94 3-blade should need something like the same = power at=20 the same rpm.  Based on what little dyno data I have at lower = rpm, the=20 number seems too low; but can=92t I believe the EM2 reading?  = It=92s all I=92ve=20 got.

 

I presume you EGT temps = are=20 Celsius?

 

Wha-a? =20 No.  I think around 1100F is OK at 2000 and low power. =20 No?

 

I have a heated borsch = O2 sensor=20 as well and yes, it reads 0-1volt with 0 being lean and 1 being = rich.  I=20 presume its not one of those expensive so called "broad band" sensors = that are=20 used on some autos today?? They generally run close to $200 or=20 more.

 

It=92s a=20 three lead one that I picked out at the auto parts store for about = $55.=20  I think it is used in the Miata, and in some=20 Fords.

 

So if you would bring me = up to=20 speed on the induction system, I'll hopefully be able to offer some=20 suggestions

 

Thanks, = ED. =20 If you are patient enough to read the other two responses to Dave and = Rusty=20 ther may be some other relevant info there.  One of the big = concerns=20 right now is about oil flow to the redrive.  I have no idea why = it=20 wouldn=92t be flowing, but why is the line not getting hot?  I = don=92t want=20 to run further it there is no oil flow going to the drive.  As I = recall,=20 there is no restrictor in the RD-1B, and that the oil goes into a = little=20 gallery in the rear bearing (or something like that).  Also, I = have about=20 1=94 gear play, measured at the tip of my 66=94 prop.  Is that=20 normal?

 

Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW = Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: Al = Gietzen=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent:=20 Thursday, August 26,=20 2004 9:14=20 PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Engine run

 

I=20 guess I have now done what I=92d consider the first serious runs of = the engine=20 on the plane, and I have so many question marks in my head, it=92s = hard to=20 know what to address next.

The = biggest issue=20 is; I cannot get smooth running up to about 2200 rpm; which is as = far as I=20 went.  At about 2000 I adjusted mixture from too lean to too = rich, and=20 nowhere does it smooth out completely =96 some roughness, mild = surging. =20 At lower rpm, 1000 =96 1500 it is quite rough and unsteady, which is = disconcerting in itself, but worrisome when it goes through periods = of=20 torsional vibration with the reduction gear backlash, which is noisy = and=20 shakes the plane.

Of = course it=20 brings back the recent discussions of you other guys with the 550 = injectors=20 in the primary.  I kind of glossed over that because I recalled = smooth=20 running on the dyno.  In hindsight now, I think the operator = figured=20 out early-on that to keep it smooth he needed to keep some load on = =96 just=20 turn the load knob a little and it was fine.  And on the dyno = when it=20 wasn=92t running smooth, no big deal =96 no redrive to backlash, and = the engine=20 is bolted down in the next room.  You could just hear that it = wasn=92t=20 running smooth.

Still, = I suspect=20 something is different now; and perhaps you=92ll indulge my dumping, = and pass=20 on a clue or two.

At 2000 = I=92m=20 seeing a 13.1 MAP reading.  Seems low to me.  Is it? That = puts it=20 below the stage point, yet when I turned off the primary injectors, = it=20 continued to run; just rougher.  Same effect turning off the=20 secondaries.  Hotest EGT was at about 1100, lowest about 980.=20  Bigger spread than I ever saw on the dyno runs, but the data = we took=20 there was always under higher load.

Fuel = pressure=20 reads 50 psi, TWM tells me it came to me preset at 43.5.  When = the=20 coolant temp read 125 when the pipes and rad tanks were just about = too hot=20 to touch, which I guessed to be more like 140.  I=92m = suspicious of just=20 about every readout. Later when the WT read 140, the CHT TC that = measure=20 temps in and out of the rads were reading about 85.  I believed = backup=20 gauges were unnecessary.

Oh = yeah; the=20 mixture bar reads just about full scale all the time, even when the = engine=20 is about to die from being too lean.  I have a different heated = Bosch=20 sensor, which I assumed would have the same 0-1volt range. =  Maybe=20 not.  Is the sensor output voltage low when lean or rich? =  With=20 the engine off and sensor heated I measured .052 volts.  I = tried to get=20 a reading with the engine running, but all I got was about .025 and = I can=92t=20 be certain I had contact with the lead =96 and with the prop = spinning so close=20 by I didn=92t spend too much time trying.

One = other major=20 concern.  With hot oil (150) at the filter block where the feed = goes to=20 the redrive, the =BC=94 Al line to the redrive was hardly above = ambient temp a=20 minute or two after shutdown; suggesting little or no flow was going = there.  Oil pressure was in the 90=92s.  I=92m not aware = that there is=20 an orifice in there.  This has me a bit = baffled.

Oil = pressure,=20 coolant pressure, Oil temp seem fine.

Maybe I = should go=20 to a movie.

Al (not = ecstatic)

 

>>  Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>  Archive:  =20 = http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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