Return-Path: Received: from [216.8.74.9] (HELO mail.hansoninfosys.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2) with SMTP id 359654 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:43:45 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.8.74.9; envelope-from=dvanwinkle@royell.net Received: (qmail 11074 invoked by uid 89); 10 Aug 2004 15:43:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dv) (216.89.133.186) by 0 with SMTP; 10 Aug 2004 15:43:14 -0000 Message-ID: <012a01c47ef0$dd9e33c0$800010ac@royell.net> From: "Dean" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] returnless fuel system Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:44:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0127_01C47EC6.F4637680" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0127_01C47EC6.F4637680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Todd I would like to add my congratulations to all the others on your new = arrival. It is certainly a life changing event. You mentioned the possibility of adding 1/4" bulkhead fittings to your = fuel tanks for return fuel. Paul just noted in his 8/1/2004 msg that = during his flight with Dave Leonard, he personally observed 45 gallons = per hour fuel return with one of Tracy's pumps on and 80 gallons per = hour with both pumps on!! Dave has a flow meter on his return line. I = think 3/8" return lines would be more prudent. I installed 3/8" = straight bulkhead fittings on my standard 9A tanks in the upper rear = corner. When I started assembling my fuselage, I realized that the = fittings were aimed straight at the upper fwd center section bar. I = have now installed AN Male to Female Swivel 90 degree Elbows from = www.pegasusautoracing.com on the bulkhead fittings to avoid the = interference problem. =20 Best Regards to the family Dean Van Winkle RV-9A Fuselage/Finish 13B NA, RD-1B, EC2, EM2 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Todd Bartrim=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 2:39 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] returnless fuel system First I'd like to thank everybody for their congrats on & offline, = everybody is still doing fine, but sleep is still at a premium. = Definitely no time for flying :-(, maybe in a few days. No jump seat in = the 9 yet, but I'm already planning it :-) Second I need to say that even though I seem to have found a = successful fuel system, I do regret not adding fuel return fittings in = each of my 6 tanks. A simple 1/4" bulkhead fitting with a cap is not too = much $$$, or weight and it will allow simple plumbing changes if ever = necessary. While I have 30 successful flight hours on my returnless = system, it is prudent to remember that I only have 30 flight hours on my = returnless system.:-). And none of this flight time was down south where = your idea of summer & winter are vastly different than up here in the = great white north. At this point I'd recommend that you install return = fittings while it's still easy to do. I wish I had, however if I had I = may not have ever tried this system and only went with a conventional = system. Even if my system continuous to be successful, if I ever have a = reason to remove my tanks, I will add return fittings with caps. I may have this opportunity. I currently have capacitive fuel = sensors, which are read by an E.I.sensor. I bought the components to = build a converter as per Jim Weirs plans from a past KitPlanes article, = in order to display on the EM2 which needs a 0-5 volt signal. However I = find that auto fuel seems to vary in it's capacitance. When properly = calibrated they are very accurate, but put in fuel from another batch = and the readings are less accurate, put in fuel from the original batch = and they are accurate again. Start adding pre-mix fuel and of coarse = they're inaccurate again. I'm unsure if it is the fuel itself that has = dielectric variations or possibly the dye used to mark the fuel as = off-road use only? I've noticed that the purple colour seems to vary as = some batches seem to have almost no colour while others are very dark.=20 In any event, while I will still leave the capacitive probes in = place, I think I will order a set of float resistive sensors to display = fuel info on the EM2. If I do this I will add the return fittings and = then possibly I may add an electric fuel tank selector valve that I = have, except that it will be used to select fuel destination instead of = source. In it's normal un-energized state it will continue to operate as = a returnless system, but when energized it will return to a wing tank. = In the event of an unexpected vapour lock, I can just hit a mom-on push = button to return to a wing tank. My concern with this is that these fuel = tank selector valves are meant to be located on the suction side of the = fuel pump, so I'm unsure how well they would work in the return line. Bottom line... Install the return fittings while still it's easy! Todd Bartrim (trying to think of a way to burn diapers for = fuel) RV9Endurance 13B Turbo Rotary C-FSTB http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm "The world will always have a place for those that bring = hard work and determination to the things they do." ------=_NextPart_000_0127_01C47EC6.F4637680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Todd
 
I would like to add my congratulations = to all the=20 others on your new arrival.  It is certainly a life changing=20 event.
 
You mentioned the possibility of adding = 1/4"=20 bulkhead fittings to your fuel tanks for return fuel.  Paul just = noted in=20 his 8/1/2004 msg that during his flight with Dave Leonard, he = personally=20 observed 45 gallons per hour fuel return with one of Tracy's pumps on = and 80=20 gallons per hour with both pumps on!!  Dave has a flow meter on his = return=20 line.  I think 3/8" return lines would be more prudent.  I = installed=20 3/8" straight bulkhead fittings on my standard 9A tanks in the upper = rear=20 corner.  When I started assembling my fuselage, I realized that the = fittings were aimed straight at the upper fwd center section bar.  = I have=20 now installed AN Male to Female Swivel 90 degree Elbows from www.pegasusautoracing.com = on the=20 bulkhead fittings to avoid the interference problem. 
 
Best Regards to the family
Dean Van Winkle
RV-9A Fuselage/Finish
13B NA, RD-1B, EC2, EM2
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Todd = Bartrim=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 = 2:39=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] returnless = fuel=20 system

    First I'd like to = thank=20 everybody for their congrats on & offline, everybody is still = doing fine,=20 but sleep is still at a premium. Definitely no time for flying :-(, = maybe in a=20 few days.  No jump seat in the 9 = yet, but=20 I'm already planning it :-)

    Second I need to = say that=20 even though I seem to have found a successful fuel system, I do regret not = adding fuel=20 return fittings in each of my 6 tanks. A simple 1/4" bulkhead fitting = with a=20 cap is not too much $$$, or weight and it will allow simple plumbing = changes=20 if ever necessary. While I have 30 successful flight hours on my=20 returnless system, it is prudent to remember that I only have 30 = flight hours=20 on my returnless system.:-). And none of this flight time was down = south where=20 your idea of summer & winter are vastly different than up here in = the=20 great white north. At this point I'd recommend that you install return = fittings while it's still easy to do. I wish I had, however if I had I = may not=20 have ever tried this system and only went with a conventional system. = Even if=20 my system continuous to be successful, if I ever have a reason to = remove my=20 tanks, I will add return fittings with caps.

    I may = have this=20 opportunity. I currently have capacitive fuel sensors, which are read = by an=20 E.I.sensor. I bought the components to build a converter as per Jim = Weirs=20 plans from a past KitPlanes article, in order to display on the EM2 = which=20 needs a 0-5 volt signal. However I find that auto fuel seems to vary = in it's=20 capacitance. When properly calibrated they are very accurate, but put = in fuel=20 from another batch and the readings are less accurate, put in fuel = from the=20 original batch and they are accurate again. Start adding pre-mix fuel = and of=20 coarse they're inaccurate again. I'm unsure if it is the fuel itself = that has=20 dielectric variations or possibly the dye used to mark the fuel as = off-road=20 use only? I've noticed that the purple colour seems to vary as some = batches=20 seem to have almost no colour while others are very dark.=20

    In any event, while I = will still=20 leave the capacitive probes in place, I think I will order a set of = float=20 resistive sensors to display fuel info on the EM2. If I do this I will = add the=20 return fittings and then possibly I may add an electric fuel tank = selector=20 valve that I have, except that it will be used to select fuel = destination=20 instead of source. In it's normal un-energized state it will continue = to=20 operate as a returnless system, but when energized it will return to a = wing=20 tank. In the event of an unexpected vapour lock, I can just hit a = mom-on push=20 button to return to a wing tank. My concern with this is that these = fuel tank=20 selector valves are meant to be located on the suction side of the = fuel pump,=20 so I'm unsure how well they would work in the return=20 line.

Bottom = line...=20 Install the return fittings while still it's = easy!

Todd Bartrim        = (trying to=20 think of a way to burn diapers for fuel)
 
RV9Endurance
13B Turbo Rotary
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.= net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
 
          &nbs= p; =20 "The world will always have a place for those that bring hard work and = determination to the things they do."
 
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