X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [207.46.163.241] (HELO na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.9e) with ESMTPS id 6997380 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 24 Jul 2014 14:15:49 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.46.163.241; envelope-from=rpastusek@htii.com Received: from BY2PR07MB551.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.217.150) by BY2PR07MB076.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.255.240.156) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.980.8; Thu, 24 Jul 2014 18:15:09 +0000 Received: from BY2PR07MB550.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.217.145) by BY2PR07MB551.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.217.150) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.990.7; Thu, 24 Jul 2014 18:15:07 +0000 Received: from BY2PR07MB550.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.217.145]) by BY2PR07MB550.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.217.145]) with mapi id 15.00.0990.007; Thu, 24 Jul 2014 18:15:07 +0000 From: Robert R Pastusek To: "lml@lancaironline.net" Subject: FW: [LML] Re: Gascolators and fuel lines. Thread-Topic: [LML] Re: Gascolators and fuel lines. Thread-Index: AQHPp2T2cZDFElNYukio/pj4zx3bQpuvf9WQ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 18:15:06 +0000 Message-ID: <88b444e0f79448b4a36e1ff5f3ba1b94@BY2PR07MB550.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [72.9.2.42] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID: x-forefront-prvs: 028256169F x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM;SFS:(24454002)(377454003)(199002)(189002)(76104003)(95666004)(99286002)(85852003)(106116001)(31966008)(87936001)(80022001)(106356001)(83322001)(66066001)(110136001)(86362001)(19580405001)(2656002)(81342001)(107886001)(21056001)(76576001)(107046002)(92566001)(99396002)(15202345003)(64706001)(50986999)(76176999)(85306003)(46102001)(81542001)(74662001)(4396001)(15975445006)(19300405004)(105586002)(77982001)(19625215002)(20776003)(16236675004)(76482001)(83072002)(19580395003)(54356999)(79102001)(2351001)(74502001)(101416001)(33646002)(74316001)(108616002)(24736002);DIR:OUT;SFP:;SCL:1;SRVR:BY2PR07MB551;H:BY2PR07MB550.namprd07.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;MLV:sfv;PTR:InfoNoRecords;MX:1;LANG:en; Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_88b444e0f79448b4a36e1ff5f3ba1b94BY2PR07MB550namprd07pro_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: rpastusek@htii.com X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID: X-OriginatorOrg: htii.com --_000_88b444e0f79448b4a36e1ff5f3ba1b94BY2PR07MB550namprd07pro_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Adam, My experience is the same as yours. I often found/drained water out of my o= ld Cherokee tanks, and MANY rental airplanes as well. All were parked outsi= de, and I think avgas came with a certain amount of "water added" in the ol= d days... L I've never found any water in the gascolator of my IV-P, so the fuel doesn'= t have/collect any water...or it's going through the engine and being vapor= ized--which I think unlikely. I know the gas caps are MUCH better than the = old Cherokee "stoppers," and I rarely park the Lancair outside these days. Like you, I was meticulous in cleaning/keeping the fuel tanks/lines clean d= uring fabrication and through flight test. I still collected some small amo= unts of carbon fuzz, and a few bits of aluminum in the gascolator during te= sting, and at the first two condition inspections. Almost undetectable bits= of something for the last three, not enough to even identify when poured o= nto a piece of white paper... So the gascolator/filter is probably not serv= ing a useful function today...but deleting it would be like throwing away t= he spare tire in my car, IMHO... I carry a few critical spare parts in my a= irplane for the same reason... Bob From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Adam= Molny Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 1:30 PM To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: [LML] Re: Gascolators and fuel lines. Hi Mark - Our planes are kept in a heated hangar so there's no opportunity for water = in the system from rain or condensation. Back when I was renting Cessnas an= d Pipers I did occasionally drain water from the gascolator. Those planes w= ere kept outside. The lowest point in the Legacy fuel system is the fuel selector valve, but = it's not designed to capture water or sediment like a gascolator. Your noti= on that the fuel flows too fast for water to settle out is difficult to pro= ve or disprove. I always envisioned tiny globs of water flowing out of the = fuel tanks and coalescing into a large glob of water in the gascolator. The= real test would be to pour a cup of water into one wing tank, run the engi= ne at high power, and see where the water ends up (in the gascolator, out t= he tailpipe, or back to the fuel tank). However, deliberately adding water = to the fuel system seems like a bad idea so I'm not going to try it. I think you are saying you want fuel filtration but there's no point in hav= ing water separation since a gascolator won't work. Can you be 100% certain= that you will never get water in your system? What about flying through ra= in with a loose fuel cap? What about being parked outside at Oshkosh for a = week? If you do get water in the system, where will it go? I hate to fall b= ack on the "It's always been done that way" argument, but gascolators exist= for a reason. For all the Legacy drivers out there: Have any of you ever discovered water= in the gascolator? Good discussion! -Adam Molny ________________________________ From: Mark Sletten [mailto:mwsletten@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 9:15 AM To: Adam Molny Subject: Re: Gascolators and fuel lines. Adam, I wasn't questioning the value of fuel filtration, just whether a gascolato= r is the best choice. As I understand it, the gascolator provides a means t= o filter the fuel and a low point to catch water that may have gotten into = the fuel system. There are several arguments against using one for the Lega= cy. 1. In the Legacy the gascolator is not the lowest point in the fuel deli= very path from the tank to the engine, so water in the tank should not flow= to the gascolator before turning on the pumps. (I believe the same is true= of the RV. Has your wife ever drained any water from her gascolator?) 2. Given the high fuel flow rate and recirculation of unused fuel to the= tank, it's unlikely the gascolator will remove any water with the engine r= unning. 3. The gascolator in the engine compartment provides a large surface are= a to add heat to the fuel which can contribute to vapor lock. Lancair comba= ts this with a heat shroud and blast air, adding weight and complexity. 4. The gascolator requires numerous fittings and breaks in the fuel line= s, adding to complexity, weight and the possibility of fuel leaks. Since the gascolator appears to be rather useless at removing water, it's p= rimary function for the Legacy is filtration. With so many other filtration= options available, it seems illogical to put a gascolator in the engine co= mpartment. What do you think? --Mark On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 7:12 AM, Adam Molny > wrote: Mark - The gascolator provides a large reservoir for capturing water and sediment.= It also contains a fine screen with a fairly large area that acts the fina= l filtration element to keep junk out of your carburetor or injector(s). Case in point: my wife's RV6-A started showing small amounts of debris when= sumping the fuel tank drains and gascolator. We opened up the gascolator a= nd found a small amount of debris at the bottom of the bowl, and the screen= was about 5% blocked. There was no immediate danger, since the bowl would = have to completely fill with debris and the screen would have to be 100% bl= ocked in order to kill the engine. It turned out to be bits of fuel tank se= alant flaking off. My point here is that the gascolator acts as a buffer and gives you lots of= warning and lots of time to head off any potential fuel contamination prob= lem. What is the argument for omitting the gascolator on fuel injected engines? -Adam Molny Legacy N181AM 255hrs ________________________________ From: Mark Sletten [mailto:mwsletten@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 7:35 AM Subject: Gascolators and fuel lines. Gang, First: Gascolators. There is a great deal of debate around the web on the b= enefits of a gascolator in fuel injected systems. What's the consensus amon= g Lancairians? Second: I'm considering making my own engine compartment fuel lines. I plan= to build them up from scratch including the fire sleeve (or not if the hos= e is sufficiently fire resistant). Anyone have a recommendation on the type= of hose to use? --Mark --_000_88b444e0f79448b4a36e1ff5f3ba1b94BY2PR07MB550namprd07pro_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Adam,


My experience is the same as yours. I often found/drained water out of my o= ld Cherokee tanks, and MANY rental airplanes as well. All were parked outsi= de, and I think avgas came with a certain amount of “water added̶= 1; in the old days… L

 

I’ve never found any water in the gascolator = of my IV-P, so the fuel doesn’t have/collect any water…or it= 217;s going through the engine and being vaporized--which I think unlikely. I know the gas cap= s are MUCH better than the old Cherokee “stoppers,” and I rarel= y park the Lancair outside these days.

 

Like you, I was meticulous in cleaning/keeping the = fuel tanks/lines clean during fabrication and through flight test. I still collected some small amounts of carbon fuzz, and a few bits of alu= minum in the gascolator during testing, and at the first two condition insp= ections. Almost undetectable bits of something for the last three, not enou= gh to even identify when poured onto a piece of white paper… So the gascolator/filter is probably no= t serving a useful function today…but deleting it would be like throw= ing away the spare tire in my car, IMHO… I carry a few critical spare= parts in my airplane for the same reason…

 

Bob

 

From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Adam Molny=
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 1:30 PM
To: Lancair Mailing List
Subject: [LML] Re: Gascolators and fuel lines.

 

Hi Mark –

 

Our planes are kept in a heate= d hangar so there’s no opportunity for water in the system from rain = or condensation. Back when I was renting Cessnas and Pipers I did occasionally drain water from the gascolator. Those planes were kept o= utside.

 

The lowest point in the Legacy= fuel system is the fuel selector valve, but it’s not designed to cap= ture water or sediment like a gascolator. Your notion that the fuel flows too fast for water to settle out is difficult to prove or dispr= ove. I always envisioned tiny globs of water flowing out of the fuel tanks = and coalescing into a large glob of water in the gascolator. The real test = would be to pour a cup of water into one wing tank, run the engine at high power, and see where the water = ends up (in the gascolator, out the tailpipe, or back to the fuel tank). Ho= wever, deliberately adding water to the fuel system seems like a bad idea s= o I’m not going to try it.

 

I think you are saying you wan= t fuel filtration but there’s no point in having water separation sin= ce a gascolator won’t work. Can you be 100% certain that you will never get water in your system? What about flying through rain with a loos= e fuel cap? What about being parked outside at Oshkosh for a week? If you d= o get water in the system, where will it go? I hate to fall back on the = 220;It’s always been done that way” argument, but gascolators exist for a reason.

 

For all the Legacy drivers out= there: Have any of you ever discovered water in the gascolator?=

 

Good discussion!

-Adam Molny

From: Mark Sletten [= mailto:mwsletten@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 9:15 AM
To: Adam Molny
Subject: Re: Gascolators and fuel lines.

 

Adam,

 

I wasn't questioning the value of fuel filtration, j= ust whether a gascolator is the best choice. As I understand it, the gascol= ator provides a means to filter the fuel and a low point to catch water tha= t may have gotten into the fuel system. There are several arguments against using one for the Legacy.

  1. In the = Legacy the gascolator is not the lowest point in the fuel delivery path fro= m the tank to the engine, so water in the tank should not flow to the gasco= lator before turning on the pumps. (I believe the same is true of the RV. Has your wife ever drained any water from her = gascolator?)
  2. Given t= he high fuel flow rate and recirculation of unused fuel to the tank, it's u= nlikely the gascolator will remove any water with the engine running.<= /o:p>
  3. The gas= colator in the engine compartment provides a large surface area to add heat= to the fuel which can contribute to vapor lock. Lancair combats this with = a heat shroud and blast air, adding weight and complexity.
  4. The gas= colator requires numerous fittings and breaks in the fuel lines, adding to = complexity, weight and the possibility of fuel leaks.

Since the gascolator appears to be rather useless at= removing water, it's primary function for the Legacy is filtration. With s= o many other filtration options available, it seems illogical to put a gasc= olator in the engine compartment.

 

What do you think?

 

--Mark

 

On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 7:12 AM, Adam Molny <Adam@validatio= npartners.com> wrote:

Mark –

 

The gascolator provides a large reservoir fo= r capturing water and sediment. It also contains a fine screen with a fairly large area that acts the final filtration element to keep ju= nk out of your carburetor or injector(s).

 

Case in point: my wife’s RV6-A started= showing small amounts of debris when sumping the fuel tank drains and gascolator. We opened up the gascolator and found a small amount of de= bris at the bottom of the bowl, and the screen was about 5% blocked. There = was no immediate danger, since the bowl would have to completely fill with = debris and the screen would have to be 100% blocked in order to kill the engine. It turned out to be bits o= f fuel tank sealant flaking off.

 

My point here is that the gascolator acts as= a buffer and gives you lots of warning and lots of time to head off any potential fuel contamination problem.

 

What is the argument for omitting the gascol= ator on fuel injected engines?

 

-Adam Molny

Legacy N181AM 255hrs

From: Mark Sletten [mailto:mwsletten@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 7:35 AM
Subject: Gascolators and fuel lines.

 

Gang,

 

First: Gascolators. There is a great deal of debate around the web= on the benefits of a gascolator in fuel injected systems. What's the conse= nsus among Lancairians? 

 

Second: I'm considering making my own engine compartment fuel line= s. I plan to build them up from scratch including the fire sleeve (or not i= f the hose is sufficiently fire resistant). Anyone have a recommendation on the type of hose to use?

 

--Mark

 

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