X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 13:30:11 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from vms173011pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.11] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.9e) with ESMTP id 6996803 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 24 Jul 2014 10:05:18 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=206.46.173.11; envelope-from=Adam@ValidationPartners.com Received: from VpiWorkstation1 ([unknown] [67.81.167.47]) by vms173011.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009)) with ESMTPA id <0N97007LWZ3MUD80@vms173011.mailsrvcs.net> for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 24 Jul 2014 09:04:39 -0500 (CDT) From: "Adam Molny" X-Original-To: "'Mark Sletten'" X-Original-Cc: References: <1226C86066CD4A67829B93E19777A193@VpiWorkstation1> Subject: RE: Gascolators and fuel lines. X-Original-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 10:04:32 -0400 X-Original-Message-id: <3AAAEA694ABB48D2A0706F92A8F0E833@VpiWorkstation1> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01FD_01CFA726.AD4D3DB0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: Ac+nQV9DHB2uvjqyT3a1eHwA3DMw0wAALvvQ In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01FD_01CFA726.AD4D3DB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mark - Our planes are kept in a heated hangar so there's no opportunity for water in the system from rain or condensation. Back when I was renting Cessnas and Pipers I did occasionally drain water from the gascolator. Those planes were kept outside. The lowest point in the Legacy fuel system is the fuel selector valve, but it's not designed to capture water or sediment like a gascolator. Your notion that the fuel flows too fast for water to settle out is difficult to prove or disprove. I always envisioned tiny globs of water flowing out of the fuel tanks and coalescing into a large glob of water in the gascolator. The real test would be to pour a cup of water into one wing tank, run the engine at high power, and see where the water ends up (in the gascolator, out the tailpipe, or back to the fuel tank). However, deliberately adding water to the fuel system seems like a bad idea so I'm not going to try it. I think you are saying you want fuel filtration but there's no point in having water separation since a gascolator won't work. Can you be 100% certain that you will never get water in your system? What about flying through rain with a loose fuel cap? What about being parked outside at Oshkosh for a week? If you do get water in the system, where will it go? I hate to fall back on the "It's always been done that way" argument, but gascolators exist for a reason. For all the Legacy drivers out there: Have any of you ever discovered water in the gascolator? Good discussion! -Adam Molny _____ From: Mark Sletten [mailto:mwsletten@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 9:15 AM To: Adam Molny Subject: Re: Gascolators and fuel lines. Adam, I wasn't questioning the value of fuel filtration, just whether a gascolator is the best choice. As I understand it, the gascolator provides a means to filter the fuel and a low point to catch water that may have gotten into the fuel system. There are several arguments against using one for the Legacy. 1. In the Legacy the gascolator is not the lowest point in the fuel delivery path from the tank to the engine, so water in the tank should not flow to the gascolator before turning on the pumps. (I believe the same is true of the RV. Has your wife ever drained any water from her gascolator?) 2. Given the high fuel flow rate and recirculation of unused fuel to the tank, it's unlikely the gascolator will remove any water with the engine running. 3. The gascolator in the engine compartment provides a large surface area to add heat to the fuel which can contribute to vapor lock. Lancair combats this with a heat shroud and blast air, adding weight and complexity. 4. The gascolator requires numerous fittings and breaks in the fuel lines, adding to complexity, weight and the possibility of fuel leaks. Since the gascolator appears to be rather useless at removing water, it's primary function for the Legacy is filtration. With so many other filtration options available, it seems illogical to put a gascolator in the engine compartment. What do you think? --Mark On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 7:12 AM, Adam Molny wrote: Mark - The gascolator provides a large reservoir for capturing water and sediment. It also contains a fine screen with a fairly large area that acts the final filtration element to keep junk out of your carburetor or injector(s). Case in point: my wife's RV6-A started showing small amounts of debris when sumping the fuel tank drains and gascolator. We opened up the gascolator and found a small amount of debris at the bottom of the bowl, and the screen was about 5% blocked. There was no immediate danger, since the bowl would have to completely fill with debris and the screen would have to be 100% blocked in order to kill the engine. It turned out to be bits of fuel tank sealant flaking off. My point here is that the gascolator acts as a buffer and gives you lots of warning and lots of time to head off any potential fuel contamination problem. What is the argument for omitting the gascolator on fuel injected engines? -Adam Molny Legacy N181AM 255hrs _____ From: Mark Sletten [mailto:mwsletten@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 7:35 AM Subject: Gascolators and fuel lines. Gang, First: Gascolators. There is a great deal of debate around the web on the benefits of a gascolator in fuel injected systems. What's the consensus among Lancairians? Second: I'm considering making my own engine compartment fuel lines. I plan to build them up from scratch including the fire sleeve (or not if the hose is sufficiently fire resistant). Anyone have a recommendation on the type of hose to use? --Mark ------=_NextPart_000_01FD_01CFA726.AD4D3DB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Mark = –

 

Our planes are kept in a heated = hangar so there’s no opportunity for water in the system from rain or = condensation. Back when I was renting Cessnas and Pipers I did occasionally drain = water from the gascolator. Those planes were kept outside. =

 

The lowest point in the Legacy fuel = system is the fuel selector valve, but it’s not designed to capture water = or sediment like a gascolator. Your notion that the fuel flows too fast for = water to settle out is difficult to prove or disprove. I always envisioned = tiny globs of water flowing out of the fuel tanks and coalescing into a large glob = of water in the gascolator. The real test would be to pour a cup of water = into one wing tank, run the engine at high power, and see where the water ends up = (in the gascolator, out the tailpipe, or back to the fuel tank). However, = deliberately adding water to the fuel system seems like a bad idea so I’m not = going to try it.

 

I think you are saying you want = fuel filtration but there’s no point in having water separation since a gascolator won’t work. Can you be 100% certain that you will never = get water in your system? What about flying through rain with a loose fuel = cap? What about being parked outside at Oshkosh for a week? If you do get water in the system, where will it go? I hate = to fall back on the “It’s always been done that way” argument, = but gascolators exist for a reason.

 

For all the Legacy drivers out = there: Have any of you ever discovered water in the = gascolator?

 

Good discussion! =

-Adam Molny

From: Mark = Sletten [mailto:mwsletten@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, = 2014 9:15 AM
To: Adam Molny
Subject: Re: Gascolators = and fuel lines.

 

Adam,

 

I wasn't questioning the value of fuel filtration, just whether = a gascolator is the best choice. As I understand it, the gascolator = provides a means to filter the fuel and a low point to catch water that may have = gotten into the fuel system. There are several arguments against using one for = the Legacy.

  1. In the Legacy the gascolator is not the = lowest point in the fuel delivery path from the tank to the engine, so = water in the tank should not flow to the gascolator before turning on the = pumps. (I believe the same is true of the RV. Has your wife ever drained any = water from her gascolator?)
  2. Given the high fuel flow rate and = recirculation of unused fuel to the tank, it's unlikely the gascolator will = remove any water with the engine running.
  3. The gascolator in the engine compartment = provides a large surface area to add heat to the fuel which can contribute = to vapor lock. Lancair combats this with a heat shroud and blast air, adding = weight and complexity.
  4. The gascolator requires numerous = fittings and breaks in the fuel lines, adding to complexity, weight and the = possibility of fuel leaks.

Since the gascolator appears to be rather useless at removing = water, it's primary function for the Legacy is filtration. With so many other filtration options available, it seems illogical to put a gascolator in = the engine compartment.

 

What do you think?

 

--Mark

 

On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 7:12 AM, Adam Molny <Adam@validationpartners.com> wrote:

Mark –

 

The gascolator provides a large reservoir for capturing = water and sediment. It also contains a fine screen with a fairly large area that = acts the final filtration element to keep junk out of your carburetor or = injector(s).

 

Case in point: my wife’s RV6-A started showing small = amounts of debris when sumping the fuel tank drains and gascolator. We opened up = the gascolator and found a small amount of debris at the bottom of the bowl, = and the screen was about 5% blocked. There was no immediate danger, since = the bowl would have to completely fill with debris and the screen would have to = be 100% blocked in order to kill the engine. It turned out to be bits of fuel = tank sealant flaking off.

 

My point here is that the gascolator acts as a buffer and = gives you lots of warning and lots of time to head off any potential fuel = contamination problem.

 

What is the argument for omitting the gascolator on fuel = injected engines?

 

-Adam Molny

Legacy N181AM 255hrs

From: Mark Sletten [mailto:mwsletten@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, = 2014 7:35 AM
Subject: Gascolators and = fuel lines.

 

Gang,

 

First: Gascolators. There is a great deal of debate around the web on the = benefits of a gascolator in fuel injected systems. What's the consensus among Lancairians? 

 

Second: I'm considering making my own engine compartment fuel lines. I plan to build = them up from scratch including the fire sleeve (or not if the hose is = sufficiently fire resistant). Anyone have a recommendation on the type of hose to = use?

 

--Mark

 

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