X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 13:23:58 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm24-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com ([98.139.213.161] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.9e) with ESMTPS id 6992996 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 09:47:13 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.213.161; envelope-from=chris_zavatson@yahoo.com Received: from [98.139.212.153] by nm24.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Jul 2014 13:46:38 -0000 Received: from [98.139.211.193] by tm10.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Jul 2014 13:46:38 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Jul 2014 13:46:38 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 96927.20879.bm@smtp202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: Iak2C14VM1ny.dZfTVK0ULGqJOTsZVVGMxU9tH.Wpz6Ssn5 n.sw9HH.6WEgUQKLEeReqVKUXytm5AqyxlsCgSCOOa0._wxE.tfWFzzqm8tL JAib0L6KWZrP3O88hoRLZ4IY86ts7C1ItySFfZorMJUxizpxy4FMqBOXlEsM MuhkCqD7z1sgw9Bu.DqiL5jBVJQPHUBnwY6OTPi51DbJdgiJ4VjvKDQYt_pH KfGlQUE3c.4wwFZmLzEtoEOJY9Dz1RAKKZbBDRxTddLPlWOpmgtCqjgq3jzI ScaSGAIrK7jueVS_Vb_UWgJIblATqV3Wo8CRXdgM0KJedO_Kx36HTtxVytOa 3dIissFubyGg.5uhiBNWxz2AWRELkswosVwM5cbLr0X9bpscqQsWIMD9Pp.q yibHfcFx.BmfhrEeyMy3N1ba.IbE0j7oQId_xCGUhNBqWy6vGOrVAxbyTrIS 41rQnyjK1Q6IgoEZd6KZAQmCqFcGY0o447RC1WmkCtMKMMKtqS2VlLfJX3Hq IHyWuS8_pfj64op58Y6rAf03nHMWhCeJllgQpQ9RpD3h_Z3ioXs6YjHiZX_K RrLhnB2MBuvIYBzu4W2x0f1GKDZhErjyB1srTaminSLM_gn1PFPAalqY2bk1 YLdPHl5iuop9X23MYwVlYuTh1S39_9ry3TfK05W22irh5eSpNXI606LB0N9k - X-Yahoo-SMTP: 076hgjCswBC.G6e0vm7vgvZ9JJ0zmeBo_Oyw References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-F09A77B9-1D51-4A65-A872-B6D4063B500D Received: from [198.228.210.122] by web161203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 16:43:53 PDT X-Original-Message-Id: <3202074C-6D36-4708-B840-7DEF6F35189B@yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9A405) From: Chris Zavatson Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Nicopress oval sleeves - copper, tin plated, or zinc plated? Content-Length: 21012 X-Original-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 06:46:35 -0700 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List --Apple-Mail-F09A77B9-1D51-4A65-A872-B6D4063B500D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 John, Technically you are still in compliance with the regs if you use uncoated co= pper sleeves. In the applicability section of 43.1 it states" (b)This part does not apply= to- (1)Any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certifica= te, unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of certificate for= that aircraft, or..........It goes on to list a few other non-applicable ex= ceptions. In general, it is wise to follow a manufacturers recommendation. Typically t= hey will have the most experience and knowledge pertaining to their product.= Sometimes other factors cause their recommendation to deviate from the bes= t technical solution however - legal and liability concerns or financial con= siderations for example. In the final analysis, if there is a solution tha= t is as good or perhaps even better than that provided by a manufacturer, th= ere is nothing preventing its implementation in our aircraft. =20 Chris Zavatson N91CZ 360 std www.N91CZ.net On Monday, July 21, 2014 3:27 PM, John Cooper wrot= e: Thanks for the data point, Gary. Certainly the marine industry is a much har= sher corrosion environment than the inside of an airplane. There's so much c= onflicting information out there that it's hard to know whom to believe, but= I can tell you one thing: Over the last few days I've learned a lot more ab= out Nicopress sleeves than I really cared to know. With a magnifying hood, I looked down the barrel of the copper sleeve that f= ailed on my airplane and there was zero corrosion in there, nor did I see an= y on the cable end that pulled through. So I am convinced that my particular= failure had nothing to do with corrosion, but was solely due to my using th= e wrong crimp tool. I am also convinced that plain copper sleeves work just f= ine with the SS cables. Several knowledgeable people have advised me "Th= e plating just doesn't matter", and they're probably right. There may be considerations other than corrosion due to dissimilar metals in= contact with each other, but I have to think that the purpose of using one p= lating or another is to prevent galvanic (electrochemical) corrosion. I'm de= finitely not an expert in that field. but I do have a friend who is a retire= d chemical engineer. The two of us went over the Galvanic Table and agre= ed that bare copper is the most compatible to non-passivated 304 (active) st= ainless steel, followed closely by tin plate. The zinc plate was very anodic= and just looking at that chart, one would say zinc wasn't a good choice. Go= figure... Yesterday, based upon our research, I was all set to just use the plain copp= er crimp sleeves as sold by Lancair. But then I read FAR 43.13(a) (methods, t= echniques, and practices), which states: =E2=80=A6each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive m= aintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the met= hods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's mai= ntenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its m= anufacturer, or other methods, techniques, or practices acceptable to the Ad= ministrator=E2=80=A6. The manufacturer - Nicopress - specifies tin-plated sleeves for use on stain= less cables. So does Mil-Spec MS51844E (SLEEVE, SWAGING-WIRE ROPE). So does= Kitplanes magazine. So does JR Clancy - a rigging company. So although theo= retically the plain copper may be just as good or better, I have to go with w= hat the "authorities" recommend. I guess my years working for NASA ruined me= ... So I just bit the bullet and ordered 250 (minimum order) of the 428-3-VG Nic= opress tin plated sleeves and am having them shipped from Burbank via UPS 2n= d Day Air. Cost: $57 for the parts and $40 for the shipping. Sigh... I suppose I can sell the unused ones on eBay or something... Now that I'm in possession of the proper crimp tool that Tom loaned me, as w= ell as the Go gauge, I've made a couple of test crimps and they came out jus= t fine. So I'm moving on to some other puzzle now... --John P.S. Another thing I discovered while researching this is that the FAA is fr= owning upon the use of stainless control cables at all. >=20 > From: Guy Buchanan > Sender: > Subject: Re: [LML] Nicopress oval sleeves - copper, tin plated, or z= inc plated? > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 07:26:17 -0400 > To: lml@lancaironline.net=09 >=20 > =20 > Both of these are kind of funny, since zinc plated sleeves have been used i= n the marine industry for at least the last 40 years, and they hold up prett= y (read: very) well in a salt water environment, up to the strength of stain= less 7x19 cable. >=20 > Guy Buchanan > Ramona, CA > Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded > Now a glider pilot, too. >=20 > On 7/20/2014 5:26 AM, John Cooper wrote: > or zinc-plated sleeves are used on galvanized carbon steel cable. Tin-plat= ed sleeves (or as noted previously, stainless steel sleeves) are used on sta= inless cable. There are no exceptions.=20 > and... >> Zinc-plated sleeves on stainless cable has been an obsolete recommendatio= n for more than 40 years. --Apple-Mail-F09A77B9-1D51-4A65-A872-B6D4063B500D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary=Apple-Mail-F4301B86-9F10-428A-9BD9-BFD671C1B4AB --Apple-Mail-F4301B86-9F10-428A-9BD9-BFD671C1B4AB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
John,
Technically you are still= in compliance with the regs if you use uncoated copper sleeves.
In the applicability section o= f 43.1 it states"  (b)This part does not apply to-  (1)Any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental cert= ificate, unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of certificat= e for that aircraft, or..........It goes on to list a few other non-applicab= le exceptions.

In general, i= t is wise to follow a manufacturers recommendation.  Typically they wil= l have the most experience and knowledge pertaining to their product.  S= ometimes other factors cause their recommendation to deviate from the best t= echnical solution however - legal and liability concerns or financial consid= erations for example.   In the final analysis, if there is a solution that i= s as good or perhaps even better than that provided by a manufacturer, there is nothing p= reventing its implementation in our aircraft.  

Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360 std

=
= On Monday, July 21, 2014 3:27 PM, John Cooper <snopercod@comporium.net> wrote:


=20 =20 =20
Thanks for the data point, Gary. Certainly the marine industry is a much harsher corrosion environment than the inside of an airplane. There's so much conflicting information out there that it's hard to know whom to believe, but I can tell you one thing: Over the last few days I've learned a lot more about Nicopress sleeves than I really cared to know.

With a magnifying hood, I looked down the barrel of the copper sleeve that failed on my airplane and there was zero corrosion in there, nor did I see any on the cable end that pulled through. So I am convinced that my particular failure had nothing to do with corrosion, but was solely due to my using the wrong crimp tool. I am also convinced that plain copper sleeves work just fine with the SS cables. Several knowledgeable people have advised me "The plating just doesn't matter", and they're probably right.

There may be considerations other than corrosion due to dissimilar metals in contact with each other, but I have to think that the purpose of using one plating or another is to prevent galvanic (electrochemical) corrosion. I'm definitely not an expert in that field. but I do have a friend who is a retired chemical engineer. The two of us went over the Galvanic Table and agreed that bare copper is the most compatible to non-passivated 304 (active) stainless steel, followed closely by tin plate. The zinc plate was very anodic and just looking at that chart, one would say zinc wasn't a good choice. Go figure...

Yesterday, based upon our research, I was all set to just use the plain copper crimp sleeves as sold by Lancair. But then I read FAR 43.13(a) (methods, techniques, and practices), which states:

  &= nbsp; =E2=80=A6each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, or practices acceptable to the Administrator=E2=80=A6.

The manufacturer - Nicopress - specifies tin-plated sleeves for use on stainless cables. So does Mil-Spec MS51844E (SLEEVE, SWAGING-WIRE ROPE). So  does Kitplanes magazine. So does JR Clancy - a rigging company. So although theoretically the plain copper may be just as good or better, I have to go with what the "authorities" recommend. I guess my years working for NASA ruined me...
=
So I just bit the bullet and ordered 250 (minimum order) of the 428-3-VG Nicopress tin plated sleeves and am having them shipped from Burbank via UPS 2nd Day Air. Cost: $57 for the parts and $40 for the shipping. Sigh...

I suppose I can sell the unused ones on eBay or something...

Now that I'm in possession of the proper crimp tool that Tom loaned me, as well as the Go gauge, I've made a couple of test crimps and they came out just fine. So I'm moving on to some other puzzle now...

--John

P.S. Another thing I discovered while researching this is that the FAA is frowning upon the use of stainless control cables at all.

From: Guy Buchanan <gebuchanan@cox.net>
Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Nicopress oval sleeves - copper, tin plated, or zinc plated?
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 07:26:17 -0400
To: lml@lancaironline.net


Both of these are kind of funny, since zinc plated sleeves have been used in the marine industry for at least the last 40 years, and they hold up pretty (read: very) well in a salt water environment, up to the strength of stainless 7x19 cable.

Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Now a glider pilot, too.

On 7/20/2014 5:26 AM, John Cooper wrote:
or zinc-plated sleeves are used on galvanized carbon steel cable. Tin-plated sleeves= (or as noted previously, stainless steel sleeves) are used on stainless cable. There are no exceptions.
and...
Zinc-plated sleeves on stainless cable has been an obsolete recommendation for more than 40 years.



= --Apple-Mail-F4301B86-9F10-428A-9BD9-BFD671C1B4AB Content-Disposition: inline; filename=TextHeaders.gif Content-Id: <1.3872578752@web161203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: image/gif; name=TextHeaders.gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODdhCgANAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8AAAAAAAKgAAVQAAfwAA qgAA1AAqAAAqKgAqVQAqfwAqqgAq1ABVAABVKgBVVQBVfwBVqgBV1AB/AAB/KgB/VQB/fwB/qgB/ 1ACqAACqKgCqVQCqfwCqqgCq1ADUAADUKgDUVQDUfwDUqgDU1CoAACoAKioAVSoAfyoAqioA1Coq ACoqKioqVSoqfyoqqioq1CpVACpVKipVVSpVfypVqipV1Cp/ACp/Kip/VSp/fyp/qip/1CqqACqq KiqqVSqqfyqqqiqq1CrUACrUKirUVSrUfyrUqirU1FUAAFUAKlUAVVUAf1UAqlUA1FUqAFUqKlUq VVUqf1UqqlUq1FVVAFVVKlVVVVVVf1VVqlVV1FV/AFV/KlV/VVV/f1V/qlV/1FWqAFWqKlWqVVWq f1WqqlWq1FXUAFXUKlXUVVXUf1XUqlXU1H8AAH8AKn8AVX8Af38Aqn8A1H8qAH8qKn8qVX8qf38q qn8q1H9VAH9VKn9VVX9Vf39Vqn9V1H9/AH9/Kn9/VX9/f39/qn9/1H+qAH+qKn+qVX+qf3+qqn+q 1H/UAH/UKn/UVX/Uf3/Uqn/U1KoAAKoAKqoAVaoAf6oAqqoA1KoqAKoqKqoqVaoqf6oqqqoq1KpV AKpVKqpVVapVf6pVqqpV1Kp/AKp/Kqp/Vap/f6p/qqp/1KqqAKqqKqqqVaqqf6qqqqqq1KrUAKrU KqrUVarUf6rUqqrU1NQAANQAKtQAVdQAf9QAqtQA1NQqANQqKtQqVdQqf9QqqtQq1NRVANRVKtRV VdRVf9RVqtRV1NR/ANR/KtR/VdR/f9R/qtR/1NSqANSqKtSqVdSqf9SqqtSq1NTUANTUKtTUVdTU f9TUqtTU1AAAAAwMDBkZGSYmJjMzMz8/P0xMTFlZWWZmZnJycn9/f4yMjJmZmaWlpbKysr+/v8zM zNjY2OXl5fLy8v/78KCgpICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////ywAAAAACgANAAAINgDxCRw4 EAC+fwgTIjT4DwCAAwIXHlSYkKHDhxEZUpTYEONEjRstOoR4ECRFkSQ5bux4saXDgAA7 --Apple-Mail-F4301B86-9F10-428A-9BD9-BFD671C1B4AB Content-Disposition: inline; filename=TextLetter.gif Content-Id: <2.3872578753@web161203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: image/gif; name=TextLetter.gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODdhCgANAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8AAAAAAAKgAAVQAAfwAA qgAA1AAqAAAqKgAqVQAqfwAqqgAq1ABVAABVKgBVVQBVfwBVqgBV1AB/AAB/KgB/VQB/fwB/qgB/ 1ACqAACqKgCqVQCqfwCqqgCq1ADUAADUKgDUVQDUfwDUqgDU1CoAACoAKioAVSoAfyoAqioA1Coq ACoqKioqVSoqfyoqqioq1CpVACpVKipVVSpVfypVqipV1Cp/ACp/Kip/VSp/fyp/qip/1CqqACqq KiqqVSqqfyqqqiqq1CrUACrUKirUVSrUfyrUqirU1FUAAFUAKlUAVVUAf1UAqlUA1FUqAFUqKlUq VVUqf1UqqlUq1FVVAFVVKlVVVVVVf1VVqlVV1FV/AFV/KlV/VVV/f1V/qlV/1FWqAFWqKlWqVVWq f1WqqlWq1FXUAFXUKlXUVVXUf1XUqlXU1H8AAH8AKn8AVX8Af38Aqn8A1H8qAH8qKn8qVX8qf38q qn8q1H9VAH9VKn9VVX9Vf39Vqn9V1H9/AH9/Kn9/VX9/f39/qn9/1H+qAH+qKn+qVX+qf3+qqn+q 1H/UAH/UKn/UVX/Uf3/Uqn/U1KoAAKoAKqoAVaoAf6oAqqoA1KoqAKoqKqoqVaoqf6oqqqoq1KpV AKpVKqpVVapVf6pVqqpV1Kp/AKp/Kqp/Vap/f6p/qqp/1KqqAKqqKqqqVaqqf6qqqqqq1KrUAKrU KqrUVarUf6rUqqrU1NQAANQAKtQAVdQAf9QAqtQA1NQqANQqKtQqVdQqf9QqqtQq1NRVANRVKtRV VdRVf9RVqtRV1NR/ANR/KtR/VdR/f9R/qtR/1NSqANSqKtSqVdSqf9SqqtSq1NTUANTUKtTUVdTU f9TUqtTU1AAAAAwMDBkZGSYmJjMzMz8/P0xMTFlZWWZmZnJycn9/f4yMjJmZmaWlpbKysr+/v8zM zNjY2OXl5fLy8v/78KCgpICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////ywAAAAACgANAAAIPgDxCRw4 EAC+fwcQKjxgMCHDhAD+GUQYEcDDhhIzVjwIkSJDfA8zQjxYUWRDixVHmnSI0aHCiS5ZAphJs2ZA ADs= --Apple-Mail-F4301B86-9F10-428A-9BD9-BFD671C1B4AB-- --Apple-Mail-F09A77B9-1D51-4A65-A872-B6D4063B500D--