X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 18:27:50 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from rc4-smtp.comporium.net ([208.104.2.9] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.9e) with ESMTP id 6991928 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 16:07:38 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=208.104.2.9; envelope-from=snopercod@comporium.net Received: from rg20.comporium.net ([208.104.244.60]) by rc4-smtp.comporium.net ({f885e408-6373-4fe1-96b5-c2a14748506e}) via TCP (outbound) with ESMTP id 20140721200642846 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 20:06:42 +0000 X-RC-FROM: X-RC-RCPT: Received: from 208-104-132-203.brvd.dsl.dyn.comporium.net (EHLO _127.0.0.1_) ([208.104.132.203]) by rg20.comporium.net (MOS 4.3.4-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BUJ83806 (AUTH snopercod); Mon, 21 Jul 2014 16:06:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-Message-ID: <53CD72CF.4040003@comporium.net> X-Original-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 16:06:39 -0400 From: John Cooper User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: Re: [LML] Nicopress oval sleeves - copper, tin plated, or zinc plated? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020700080808080702010706" X-MAG-OUTBOUND: comporium.redcondor.net@208.104.244.48/28 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020700080808080702010706 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the data point, Gary. Certainly the marine industry is a much harsher corrosion environment than the inside of an airplane. There's so much conflicting information out there that it's hard to know whom to believe, but I can tell you one thing: Over the last few days I've learned a lot more about Nicopress sleeves than I really cared to know. With a magnifying hood, I looked down the barrel of the copper sleeve that failed on my airplane and there was zero corrosion in there, nor did I see any on the cable end that pulled through. So I am convinced that my particular failure had nothing to do with corrosion, but was solely due to my using the wrong crimp tool. I am also convinced that plain copper sleeves work just fine with the SS cables. Several knowledgeable people have advised me "The plating just doesn't matter", and they're probably right. There may be considerations other than corrosion due to dissimilar metals in contact with each other, but I have to think that the purpose of using one plating or another is to prevent galvanic (electrochemical) corrosion. I'm definitely not an expert in that field. but I do have a friend who is a retired chemical engineer. The two of us went over the Galvanic Table and agreed that bare copper is the most compatible to non-passivated 304 (active) stainless steel, followed closely by tin plate. The zinc plate was very anodic and just looking at that chart, one would say zinc wasn't a good choice. Go figure... Yesterday, based upon our research, I was all set to just use the plain copper crimp sleeves as sold by Lancair. But then I read FAR 43.13(a) (methods, techniques, and practices), which states: / ...each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices *prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions* for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, or practices acceptable to the Administrator..../ The manufacturer - Nicopress - specifies tin-plated sleeves for use on stainless cables. So does Mil-Spec MS51844E (SLEEVE, SWAGING-WIRE ROPE). So does Kitplanes magazine. So does JR Clancy - a rigging company. So although theoretically the plain copper may be just as good or better, I have to go with what the "authorities" recommend. I guess my years working for NASA ruined me... So I just bit the bullet and ordered 250 (minimum order) of the 428-3-VG Nicopress tin plated sleeves and am having them shipped from Burbank via UPS 2nd Day Air. Cost: $57 for the parts and $40 for the shipping. Sigh... I suppose I can sell the unused ones on eBay or something... Now that I'm in possession of the proper crimp tool that Tom loaned me, as well as the Go gauge, I've made a couple of test crimps and they came out just fine. So I'm moving on to some other puzzle now... --John P.S. Another thing I discovered while researching this is that the FAA is frowning upon the use of stainless control cables at all. > From: Guy Buchanan > Sender: > Subject: Re: [LML] Nicopress oval sleeves - copper, tin plated, or > zinc plated? > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 07:26:17 -0400 > To: lml@lancaironline.net > > Message Header > > > Undecoded Message > > > Both of these are kind of funny, since zinc plated sleeves have been > used in the marine industry for at least the last 40 years, and they > hold up pretty (read: very) well in a salt water environment, up to > the strength of stainless 7x19 cable. > > Guy Buchanan > Ramona, CA > Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded > Now a glider pilot, too. > > On 7/20/2014 5:26 AM, John Cooper wrote: > or zinc-plated sleeves are used on galvanized carbon steel cable. > *Tin-plated sleeves (or as noted previously, stainless steel sleeves) > are used on stainless cable. There are no exceptions.* > and... >> *Zinc-plated sleeves on stainless cable has been an obsolete >> recommendation**/for more than 40 years./* --------------020700080808080702010706 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------050109090302020405040702" --------------050109090302020405040702 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the data point, Gary. Certainly the marine industry is a much harsher corrosion environment than the inside of an airplane. There's so much conflicting information out there that it's hard to know whom to believe, but I can tell you one thing: Over the last few days I've learned a lot more about Nicopress sleeves than I really cared to know.

With a magnifying hood, I looked down the barrel of the copper sleeve that failed on my airplane and there was zero corrosion in there, nor did I see any on the cable end that pulled through. So I am convinced that my particular failure had nothing to do with corrosion, but was solely due to my using the wrong crimp tool. I am also convinced that plain copper sleeves work just fine with the SS cables. Several knowledgeable people have advised me "The plating just doesn't matter", and they're probably right.

There may be considerations other than corrosion due to dissimilar metals in contact with each other, but I have to think that the purpose of using one plating or another is to prevent galvanic (electrochemical) corrosion. I'm definitely not an expert in that field. but I do have a friend who is a retired chemical engineer. The two of us went over the Galvanic Table and agreed that bare copper is the most compatible to non-passivated 304 (active) stainless steel, followed closely by tin plate. The zinc plate was very anodic and just looking at that chart, one would say zinc wasn't a good choice. Go figure...

Yesterday, based upon our research, I was all set to just use the plain copper crimp sleeves as sold by Lancair. But then I read FAR 43.13(a) (methods, techniques, and practices), which states:

    …each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, or practices acceptable to the Administrator….

The manufacturer - Nicopress - specifies tin-plated sleeves for use on stainless cables. So does Mil-Spec MS51844E (SLEEVE, SWAGING-WIRE ROPE). So  does Kitplanes magazine. So does JR Clancy - a rigging company. So although theoretically the plain copper may be just as good or better, I have to go with what the "authorities" recommend. I guess my years working for NASA ruined me...

So I just bit the bullet and ordered 250 (minimum order) of the 428-3-VG Nicopress tin plated sleeves and am having them shipped from Burbank via UPS 2nd Day Air. Cost: $57 for the parts and $40 for the shipping. Sigh...

I suppose I can sell the unused ones on eBay or something...

Now that I'm in possession of the proper crimp tool that Tom loaned me, as well as the Go gauge, I've made a couple of test crimps and they came out just fine. So I'm moving on to some other puzzle now...

--John

P.S. Another thing I discovered while researching this is that the FAA is frowning upon the use of stainless control cables at all.

From: Guy Buchanan <gebuchanan@cox.net>
Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Nicopress oval sleeves - copper, tin plated, or zinc plated?
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 07:26:17 -0400
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Message Header

Undecoded Message
Both of these are kind of funny, since zinc plated sleeves have been used in the marine industry for at least the last 40 years, and they hold up pretty (read: very) well in a salt water environment, up to the strength of stainless 7x19 cable.

Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Now a glider pilot, too.

On 7/20/2014 5:26 AM, John Cooper wrote:
or zinc-plated sleeves are used on galvanized carbon steel cable. Tin-plated sleeves (or as noted previously, stainless steel sleeves) are used on stainless cable. There are no exceptions.
and...
Zinc-plated sleeves on stainless cable has been an obsolete recommendation for more than 40 years.

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