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Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:34:05 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,IltEb24ndCBmb3JnZXQgdGhhdCB5b3UgY2FuIHN0YWxsIGFuIGFpcnBsYW5lIGF0IGFsbW9zdCBhbnkgYWlyc3BlZWQsIGJ1dCB0aGUgY3JpdGljYWwgYW5nbGUgb2YgYXR0YWNrIGF0IHdoaWNoIHRoZSB3aW5nIHN0YWxscyB3aWxsIGFsd2F5cyBiZSB0aGUgc2FtZS4gwqBXaGlsZSA4MC05MCBrbm90cyBtaWdodCBiZSBhICJzYWZlIiBhaXJzcGVlZCBmbHlpbmcgc3RyYWlnaHQgJiBsZXZlbCAmIGxpZ2h0bHkgbG9hZGVkLCBpZiB5b3UgaW5jcmVhc2UgdGhlIHdpbmcgbG9hZGluZyB3aXRoIGEgNjAgZGVncmUBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.181.645 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1396290845.6407.YahooMailNeo@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:34:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Zavatson Reply-To: Chris Zavatson Subject: Re: [LML] Re: FW: Adding an AOA X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="537826103-1217773166-1396290845=:6407" --537826103-1217773166-1396290845=:6407 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "[Don't forget that you can stall an airplane at almost any airspeed, but t= he critical angle of attack at which the wing stalls will always be the sam= e. =C2=A0While 80-90 knots might be a "safe" airspeed flying straight & lev= el & lightly loaded, if you increase the wing loading with a 60 degree bank= (or simply load up with full tanks & baggage), your 80-90 knots might just= not be=C2=A0so safe anymore. =C2=A0If you go to=C2=A0http://www.advanced-f= light-systems.com/Support/AOAsupport/AOA%20Manual%20rev4.pdf=C2=A0and scrol= l down to page 17 (The "How it works" chapter) you'll have a better underst= anding of the "gotchas" that conventional flight training has always danced= around concerning AOA. =C2=A0Just my $0.02. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ]"=0A=0AI= t seems two alarm set points would be beneficial.=C2=A0 One, more narrowly = focused once on final, and another with a greater margin for everything els= e.=0A=C2=A0 =0AChris Zavatson=0AN91CZ=0A360std=0Ahttp://www.n91cz.net/=0AOn= Monday, March 31, 2014 10:42 AM, "Sky2high@aol.com" wro= te:=0A =0ADoug, =0A=0AThere is always room for refinement.=C2=A0 =0A=0AA= fighter pilot is not a Lancair pilot.=C2=A0 Did he land your plane?=C2=A0 = =0APerhaps your question would be best answered by an experienced Lancair = =0AInstructor. =0A=0AIn certificated type=C2=A0airplanes that are=C2=A0buil= t=C2=A0to the same =0Aspecs and on=C2=A0jigs, Vso is test=C2=A0flight deter= mined -=C2=A0perhaps for =0Amax gross weight, rearward CG loading, etc.=C2= =A0 Perhaps not.=C2=A0 But, =0Ausually these aircraft go through thorough s= tall=C2=A0tests at various flaps =0Asetting, weights and CGs with the stuff= out.=C2=A0 Then Vso is determined in =0Areality or is computed and verifie= d=C2=A0from design specs. =0A=0ANotice that V speeds are IASs.=C2=A0 This= =C2=A0can work=C2=A0because the =0AIAS indication is calibrated via flight = test and the correction data for =0Aposition, instrument=C2=A0and system er= ror=C2=A0is=C2=A0noted in the POH.=C2=A0 =0AOf course, one wonders if the c= orrection data was obtained at all attitudes =0A(AOA)=C2=A0and speeds. =0A= =0AI believe your aircraft is unique as denoted in the manufacturer's field= on =0Athe registration form.=C2=A0 So, has your ASI been calibrated?=C2=A0= Was Vso =0Adetermined through exhaustive tests at differing parameters? = =0A=0AI don't know if you can get creative with your AOA =0Asystem=C2=A0set= tings=C2=A0as I am not familiar with it.=C2=A0 I did use the =0Aforerunner = to the=C2=A0Advance Systems system that uses upper and lower wing =0Apressu= res along with pitot-static data to determine AOA.=C2=A0 The slope of the = =0Astraight line function was=C2=A0established by flight-setting=C2=A0two p= oints on =0Athat line.=C2=A0 =0A=0AVso x 1.3 (if a useful Vso is known) may= not provide enough =0Asafety=C2=A0margin for high performance Lancairs in = differing configurations and =0Aweather conditions - like turbulence on fin= al or trying to fly close in square =0Apatterns. =0A=0AThere are techniques= to overcome slowness or dangerous flat approaches such =0Aas a steeper app= roach angle to retain enough kinetic energy for flight =0Apath=C2=A0correct= ions, although this requires care to stop the descent high =0Aenough above = the runway. =0A=0AGood luck, =0A=0AScott Krueger. =0A=0AIn a message dated = 3/31/2014 6:35:55 A.M. Central Daylight Time, =0Adouglasbrunner@earthlink.n= et writes: =0AScott, =0A>=C2=A0 =0A>I understand that the AOA takes into a= ccount atmospheric conditions, g loading, weight of the plane, etc.=C2=A0 = That is why I am interested in it rather than just using airspeed.=C2=A0 M= y problem is that one of the points to be used for calibration is, in my o= pinion, a subjective point. =0A>=C2=A0 =0A>You say that 1.3 Vso is dangero= us with a high performance wing.=C2=A0 What number is a better one? =0A>= =C2=A0 =0A>I was taught to fly final at 110 and to slow to 90 over the num= bers =E2=80=93 which is what I normally do.=C2=A0 Recently, I flew with a = retired fighter pilot who told me I was too fast on final.=C2=A0 I told hi= m that it was better to be too fast and land long than be too slow and sta= ll.=C2=A0 But it started me thinking about a more optimal speed given how = much runway I frequently use. =0A>=C2=A0 =0A>From:Lancair Mailing List [m= ailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Sky2high@aol.com=0A>Sent: Sunday,= March 30, 2014 5:24 PM=0A>To: lml@lancaironline.net=0A>Subject: [LML] Re:= FW: Adding an AOA =0A>=C2=A0 =0A>Doug, =0A>=C2=A0 =0A>Sophisticated AOA = indications take into account atmospheric conditions and G-loading along w= ith IAS.=C2=A0 In theory, there are straight line functions between intere= sting points on the relevant AOA such as best glide, stall, etc.=C2=A0 The= old fashioned 1.3 Vso is dangerous in aircraft with high performance wings= - because the stall speed does vary with G-load and, uh, the air.=C2=A0 I= n Lancairs, 1.3 Vso=C2=A0does not provide proper margins in all cases. = =0A>=C2=A0 =0A>The sophisticated=C2=A0AOA systems need only 2 points on th= e straight line to calibrate the function (uh. the parallel=C2=A0straight = line moves because of the other parameters.=C2=A0 Some system calibrations= do not require the stall point as one measure=C2=A0(see Advanced Systems)= .=C2=A0 Some require the zero G (zero lift) point as one.=C2=A0 Be careful= . =0A>=C2=A0 =0A>Simpler system rely merely on AOA to the relative wind.= =C2=A0 This is useful because exceeding the stall=C2=A0AOA results in a st= all.=C2=A0 The sophisticated systems yield other useful information (best = glide, etc). =0A>=C2=A0 =0A>Do further study to educate yourself about AO= A. =0A>=C2=A0 =0A>Scott Krueger =0A>=C2=A0 =0A>=C2=A0 =0A>In a message da= ted 3/30/2014 2:35:00 P.M. Central Daylight Time, douglasbrunner@earthlink.= net writes: =0A>Terrence, =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>>There is no =E2=80=9Cangle=E2= =80=9D to mark.=C2=A0 Both instruments use an array of colored lights -=C2= =A0 in both, the top colored light is a red arrow pointing down =E2=80=93 = presumably this is to indicate a stall. =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>>The way that both= are made to be used is to define a safe speed (roughly 1.3 Vso) that can = be used during landing (and other maneuvers) =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>>My question= was whether to set it to 1.3 Vso or to do the maneuver described in the s= etup. =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>>D. Brunner =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>>From:Lancair Mailing Li= st [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Terrence O'Neill=0A>>Sent: = Sunday, March 30, 2014 2:18 PM=0A>>To: lml@lancaironline.net=0A>>Subject: = [LML] Re: FW: Adding an AOA =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>>D., =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>>IMHO the = prime purpose of an AOA is: =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>>To make the wing's STALL =C2= =A0ANGLE visible to the pilot. =C2=A0You do that by flying the plane and s= talling it as you watch the AOA... then mark that angle. =0A>>The next mos= t useful AOA info is the best L/D or best R/C... done the same way... fly = the plane while watching the best R/C for a given power setting, and make = that angle. =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>>Terrence =0A>>L235/320 =0A>>N211AL =0A>>=C2=A0= =0A>>On Mar 30, 2014, at 9:23 AM, Douglas Brunner wrote: =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>= >=C2=A0I am thinking of adding an AOA to my plane.=C2=A0 The two models th= at I am looking at are the Bendix King KLR 10 (http://www.bendixking.com/P= roducts/Flight-Controls-Indicators/Indicators/KLR-10) and one of the Alpha= Systems units (http://www.alphasystemsaoa.com/) =0A>>My question has to d= o with the calibration.=C2=A0 Both systems require a calibration at 3 poin= ts: =0A>>1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0On Ground =0A>>2.=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Optimum Alpha Angle =0A>>3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Cruise =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>>The =E2=80=9Con ground=E2=80=9D = and =E2=80=9Ccruise=E2=80=9D are self explanatory, however the definition o= f =E2=80=9COptimum Alpha Angle=E2=80=9D seems a little =E2=80=9Cloosey-goo= sey=E2=80=9D to me.=C2=A0 Here are the definitions: =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>>Alpha= Systems =E2=80=9COptimum Alpha Angle=E2=80=9D =0A>>=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Able to hold altitude =E2=80=93 as = close to 0 VSI as possible, zero sink =0A>>=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Full aileron, elevator and rudder control = =E2=80=93 no buffet or loss of control surface stability =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>>= Bendix King =E2=80=9COptimum Alpha Angle=E2=80=9D =0A>>=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Able to hold altitude, 0 Vertica= l Speed, zero sink (5 to 10 fpm climb OK) =0A>>=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Full aileron, elevator and rudder control= , not in a buffet, pilot to identify the set point by =0A>>pitching back = slowly to a pitch no longer able to climb but able to hold altitude with f= ull =0A>>control of the airplane. =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>>First of all, since th= is is a system meant to be used in landing (or at least that is how I will= mostly use it), I intend to calibrate the =E2=80=9COptimum Alpha Angle=E2= =80=9D in landing configuration (gear down, full flaps).=C2=A0 However, de= termining when I have =E2=80=9Cfull aileron, elevator and rudder control= =E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t all that clear to me.=C2=A0 I am sure that I can t= ell when I have aileron, elevator and rudder control =E2=80=93 but the =E2= =80=9Cfull=E2=80=9D part is less clear.=C2=A0 Does that mean a full contro= l deflection?=C2=A0 Not something I am anxious to try that close to stall.= =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>>Alternatively, I could just do a stall in landing config= uration and set the =E2=80=9COptimum Alpha Angle=E2=80=9D to 1.3 x stall. = =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>>Advice? =0A>>=C2=A0 =0A>>D. Brunner =0A>>N241DB 750 hour= s =0A>>=C2=A0 --537826103-1217773166-1396290845=:6407 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"[Don't fo= rget that you can stall an airplane at almost any airspeed, but the critica= l angle of attack at which the wing stalls will always be the same.  W= hile 80-90 knots might be a "safe" airspeed flying straight & level &am= p; lightly loaded, if you increase the wing loading with a 60 degree bank (= or simply load up with full tanks & baggage), your 80-90 knots might ju= st not be so safe anymore.  If you go to&n= bsp;http://www.advanced-flight-systems.com/Supp= ort/AOAsupport/AOA%20Manual%20rev4.pdf and scroll down to page 17 (The "How it works" chapter) y= ou'll have a better understanding of the "gotchas" that conventional flight= training has always danced around concerning AOA.  Just my $0.02. &nb= sp; <marv>   ]"
=
It seems two alarm set p= oints would be beneficial.  One, more narrowly focused once on final, = and another with a greater margin for everything else.=
&= nbsp;
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
On Monday,= March 31, 2014 10:42 AM, "Sky2high@aol.com" <Sky2high@aol.com> wrote= :
=0A=0A =0A =0A
=0A
Doug,
=0A
 
=0A=
There is always room for refinement. 
=0A
 
= =0A
A fighter pilot is not a Lancair pilot.  Did he land your plan= e?  =0APerhaps your question would be best answered by an experienced = Lancair =0AInstructor.
=0A
 
=0A
In certificated typ= e airplanes that are built to the same =0Aspecs and on = jigs, Vso is test flight determined - perhaps for =0Amax gross we= ight, rearward CG loading, etc.  Perhaps not.  But, =0Ausually th= ese aircraft go through thorough stall tests at various flaps =0Asetti= ng, weights and CGs with the stuff out.  Then Vso is determined in =0A= reality or is computed and verified from design specs.
=0A
&n= bsp;
=0A
Notice that V speeds are IASs.  This can work&n= bsp;because the =0AIAS indication is calibrated via flight test and the cor= rection data for =0Aposition, instrument and system error is = ;noted in the POH.  =0AOf course, one wonders if the correction data w= as obtained at all attitudes =0A(AOA) and speeds.
=0A
 <= /div>=0A
I believe your aircraft is unique as denoted in the manufactur= er's field on =0Athe registration form.  So, has your ASI been calibra= ted?  Was Vso =0Adetermined through exhaustive tests at differing para= meters?
=0A
 
=0A
I don't know if you can get creati= ve with your AOA =0Asystem settings as I am not familiar with it.=   I did use the =0Aforerunner to the Advance Systems system that = uses upper and lower wing =0Apressures along with pitot-static data to dete= rmine AOA.  The slope of the =0Astraight line function was establ= ished by flight-setting two points on =0Athat line. 
=0A 
=0A
Vso x 1.3 (if a useful Vso is known) may not provide e= nough =0Asafety margin for high performance Lancairs in differing conf= igurations and =0Aweather conditions - like turbulence on final or trying t= o fly close in square =0Apatterns.
=0A
 
=0A
There a= re techniques to overcome slowness or dangerous flat approaches such =0Aas = a steeper approach angle to retain enough kinetic energy for flight =0Apath=  corrections, although this requires care to stop the descent high =0A= enough above the runway.
=0A
 
=0A
Good luck,
= =0A
 
=0A
Scott Krueger.
=0A
 
=0A=0A
In a message dated 3/31/2014 6:35:55 A.M. Central Daylight Time, = =0Adouglasbrunner@earthlink.net writes:
=0A
=0A
=0A
Scott,
=0A
 
=0A
I =0A understand that the AOA takes into acco= unt atmospheric conditions, g loading, =0A weight of the plane, etc. = That is why I am interested in it rather than =0A just using airspeed.&nb= sp; My problem is that one of the points to be used for =0A calibration is= , in my opinion, a subjective point.
=0A
 
=0A
You =0A say that 1.3 Vso = is dangerous with a high performance wing.  What number =0A is a bett= er one?
=0A
 
=0A
<= span style=3D'color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: "Calibri", "sans-serif"= ; font-size: 11pt;'>I =0A was taught to fly final at 110 and to slow to 90= over the numbers =E2=80=93 which is =0A what I normally do.  Recentl= y, I flew with a retired fighter pilot who =0A told me I was too fast on f= inal.  I told him that it was better to be too =0A fast and land long= than be too slow and stall.  But it started me =0A thinking about a = more optimal speed given how much runway I frequently =0A use. =0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
From: Lancair Mailing =0A List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of =0A Sky2high@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2= 014 5:24 =0A PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LM= L] Re: FW: Adding =0A an AOA
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
Doug,
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A=
Sophisticated =0A AOA indi= cations take into account atmospheric conditions and G-loading along =0A w= ith IAS.  In theory, there are straight line functions between =0A in= teresting points on the relevant AOA such as best glide, stall, etc.  = =0A The old fashioned 1.3 Vso is dangerous in aircraft with high performan= ce wings =0A - because the stall speed does vary with G-load and, uh, the = air.  In =0A Lancairs, 1.3 Vso does not provide proper margins i= n all =0A cases.
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
The =0A sophisticated AOA systems= need only 2 points on the straight line to =0A calibrate the function (uh= . the parallel straight line moves because of =0A the other parameter= s.  Some system calibrations do not require the stall =0A point as on= e measure (see Advanced Systems).  Some require the zero =0A G (= zero lift) point as one.  Be careful.
=0A
=0A=
 
= =0A
=0A
Simpler =0A s= ystem rely merely on AOA to the relative wind.  This is useful because= =0A exceeding the stall AOA results in a stall.  The sophistica= ted =0A systems yield other useful information (best glide, =0A etc).
=0A
=0A
Do =0A further study to educate yourself about AOA.
=0A
=0A
&nb= sp;
=0A
=0A
Scott =0A Krueger
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A <= div class=3D"yiv0416203439MsoNormal"> 
=0A =
=0A
=0A
In a =0A= message dated 3/30/2014 2:35:00 P.M. Central Daylight Time, douglasbrunner@earthlink.net =0A writes:
=0A
=0A
=0A
Terrence,
=0A
 
=0A There =0A is no = =E2=80=9Cangle=E2=80=9D to mark.  Both instruments use an array of col= ored lights =0A -  in both, the top colored light is a red arrow po= inting down =E2=80=93 =0A presumably this is to indicate a stall.=
=0A
&= nbsp;
=0A
The =0A way that both are made to be used is to define a safe = speed (roughly 1.3 =0A Vso) that can be used during landing (and other = =0A maneuvers)
=0A
 
=0A
My =0A question was whether to set it = to 1.3 Vso or to do the maneuver described in =0A the setup. =0A
 =
=0A
D. =0A Brunner
=0A
 
=0A
=0A =0A
 
=0A
D.,
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
IMHO the prime purpose of an AOA =0A is:
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To make the wing's =0A STALL  ANGLE visible to the pilot.  = ;You do that by flying the =0A plane and stalling it as you watch the AO= A... then mark that =0A angle.
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=0A The next m= ost useful AOA info is the best L/D or best =0A R/C... done the same way= ... fly the plane while watching the best R/C for a =0A given power sett= ing, and make that angle.
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Terrence
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L235/320
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N211AL
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On Mar 30, 2014, at 9:23 AM, Douglas Bru= nner =0A wrote:
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My question has to =0A do with the calibration.  Bo= th systems require a calibration at 3 =0A points:
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1. &= nbsp;   &= nbsp;On =0A Ground
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2.    &= nbsp; Optimu= m Alpha =0A Angle
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3.      Cruise=
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The =E2=80=9Con ground=E2=80=9D =0A and =E2=80=9C= cruise=E2=80=9D are self explanatory, however the definition of =E2=80=9COp= timum Alpha =0A Angle=E2=80=9D seems a little =E2=80=9Cloosey-goosey=E2= =80=9D to me.  Here are the =0A definitions:
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Alpha Systems =0A =E2=80=9COptimu= m Alpha Angle=E2=80=9D
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=C2=B7       &n= bsp; = Able to= hold =0A altitude =E2=80=93 as close to 0 VSI as possible, zero sink
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=C2=B7         Full aileron, =0A elevator an= d rudder control =E2=80=93 no buffet or loss of control surface =0A stab= ility
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Bendix King =0A =E2=80=9COptimum Alph= a Angle=E2=80=9D
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=C2=B7         Able to hold = =0A altitude, 0 Vertical Speed, zero sink (5 to 10 fpm climb OK)<= span style=3D'color: black; font-family: "Calibri", "sans-serif"; font-size= : 11pt;'>
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=C2=B7         Full aileron, =0A elevator and rud= der control, not in a buffet, pilot to identify the set =0A point by
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pitching back =0A slowly to a pitc= h no longer able to climb but able to hold altitude with =0A full=
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control of the =0A airplane.
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First of all, =0A since this is a system meant to b= e used in landing (or at least that is how =0A I will mostly use it), I = intend to calibrate the =E2=80=9COptimum Alpha Angle=E2=80=9D in =0A lan= ding configuration (gear down, full flaps).  However, determining =0A = when I have =E2=80=9Cfull aileron, elevator and rudder control=E2=80=9D = isn=E2=80=99t all that clear =0A to me.  I am sure that I can tell = when I have aileron, elevator and =0A rudder control =E2=80=93 but the = =E2=80=9Cfull=E2=80=9D part is less clear.  Does that mean a =0A fu= ll control deflection?  Not something I am anxious to try that close = =0A to stall.
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Alternatively, I =0A could= just do a stall in landing configuration and set the =E2=80=9COptimum Alph= a =0A Angle=E2=80=9D to 1.3 x stall.
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Advice= ?
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 D. =0A Brunner =0A
N241DB 750 =0A hours
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