X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [207.46.163.237] (HELO na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6570384 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 30 Oct 2013 13:35:49 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.46.163.237; envelope-from=rpastusek@htii.com Received: from BLUPR07MB403.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.27.146) by BLUPR07MB401.namprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.27.141) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.810.5; Wed, 30 Oct 2013 17:35:14 +0000 Received: from BLUPR07MB403.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.3.130]) by BLUPR07MB403.namprd07.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.3.130]) with mapi id 15.00.0810.005; Wed, 30 Oct 2013 17:35:13 +0000 From: Robert R Pastusek To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: RE: [LML] engine shut down due to uncoordinated flight Thread-Topic: [LML] engine shut down due to uncoordinated flight Thread-Index: AQHO1Yq9DyMpQtgD1Ee0tteGdmSrbpoNeXlg Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 17:35:13 +0000 Message-ID: <48cc6f23766f47689604947400290a48@BLUPR07MB403.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [70.192.192.151] x-forefront-prvs: 00159D1518 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM;SFS:(377454003)(189002)(199002)(51874003)(74662001)(74366001)(31966008)(47446002)(16236675002)(74502001)(83072001)(19580395003)(19580405001)(83322001)(81542001)(79102001)(77982001)(59766001)(54316002)(76482001)(56776001)(65816001)(80022001)(66066001)(63696002)(76576001)(76796001)(76786001)(77096001)(56816003)(69226001)(85306002)(19300405004)(80976001)(81342001)(81686001)(81816001)(74706001)(74316001)(15975445006)(15202345003)(53806001)(54356001)(47736001)(47976001)(51856001)(46102001)(33646001)(4396001)(50986001)(74876001)(49866001)(87266001)(24736002);DIR:OUT;SFP:;SCL:1;SRVR:BLUPR07MB401;H:BLUPR07MB403.namprd07.prod.outlook.com;CLIP:70.192.192.151;FPR:;RD:InfoNoRecords;MX:1;A:1;LANG:en; Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_48cc6f23766f47689604947400290a48BLUPR07MB403namprd07pro_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: htii.com --_000_48cc6f23766f47689604947400290a48BLUPR07MB403namprd07pro_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ralf and Craig, This is a story worth repeating a couple of times. My IV-P behaves exactly = the same, as do all IV-series airplanes as far as I know. Part of the cause is the rather small dihedral of the wings. When the airpl= ane is not in coordinated flight, the yaw causes the fuel in the wings to = move sideways to find an "artificial level." The inner fuel bays should be = built with flapper valves to trap some fuel in the inner-most section of th= e fuel tanks during short periods of uncoordinated flight, but even that ca= n be negated with extended time in an uncoordinated condition. If the flapp= ers are not working properly, the time available for uncoordinated flight c= an be very short...especially as the fuel quantity goes down. For these rea= sons, I plan to take off and land on the right tank, and manage fuel so it = is the fuller tank for landing as Craig explains. Famous Lancair test pilot Don Goetz once told me after his personal experie= nce with this during the first flight of a new IV-P: "I have added a new ru= le for flight testing your airplane. I want to see all the parts we sent yo= u in the kit that you elected not to install." ...this after one of our bui= lders decided that these flappers added unnecessary complexity... But back to the point: Most LOBO members are on this LML and will have seen= this, but we also have a lot of new, non-builder owners who may be learnin= g these important lessons "the hard way." I believe you when you say that g= etting an engine running after it quits during a go-around is "attention ge= tting." I also suspect that at least a few of our owners, no longer with us= , failed in this attempt... This would make an excellent article for our LOBO newsletter. Would you be = willing to write it up as a "there I was" or similar format? Thanks in advance, Bob Pastusek For LOBO From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Crai= g Berland Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:12 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] engine shut down due to uncoordinated flight Ralf, My experience is identical to yours and I have winglets. When adding power= and allowing the ball to move off center, a wing will drop and you get som= e lateral force in combination that unloads the left fuel port. That is wh= y I always land and take off on the right tank. With Cheltons it is easy t= o check the trip planner once in cruise and know how much fuel you will lan= d with. I plan on having a few more gallons in the right tank and land on = the right tank. I keep fuel balanced within 8 gallons or so and I never hav= e to trim the ailerons. If a wing is low, it is always due to rudder trim.= I do not have a yaw damper. It is important to keep the ball centered on= takeoff with full fuel to prevent losing fuel out the left vent. Craig Berland N7VG Dear subscribers, I noticed a phenomena on my 4P that I thought might be worth sharing to see= if it is unique or may be others experienced something similar: When my ball is significantly out of center over a longer period of time (>= 30 sec), my fuel selector is on left, and I have less than 15 gals in my le= ft tank my engine will quit due to fuel starvation. It happens mainly when I am practicing approaches: on the missed go around,= when I am busy applying power, getting gears and flaps up, selecting my ne= xt way point in the GPS, changing my approach plates... if I am on the left= tank with low fuel and I forget to retrim the rudder for the changed power= setting my engine will shut down due to fuel starvation. My fuel indicator= will then show zero for the left tank. Switching the tanks and applying hi= gh boost brings it back to life within seconds. After 30 seconds or so I ca= n see the original amount of fuel again in the left tank. It is not a big d= eal anymore because I know how to fix it but it certainly caught my full at= tention the first time. In climb with full fuel I can also notice that I am loosing fuel out of the= left vent on the wing tip if I don't keep my ball in the middle. In straight and level flight I can run this tank dry with the exact amount = of unusable fuel to which I calibrated my fuel indicator on the ground. The only explanation that I have for this phenomena is that this uncoordina= ted flight situation must create some kind of vacuum on my wing tip around = the vent port that sucks the fuel out towards the wing tip away from the fu= selage. I have the regular wing tips and not the winglets. Any input or advice is appreciated. Ralf --_000_48cc6f23766f47689604947400290a48BLUPR07MB403namprd07pro_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ralf and Craig,

 

This is a story worth repeating a couple of times. My IV-P beha= ves exactly the same, as do all IV-series airplanes as far as I know.
Part of the cause is the rather small dihedral of the wings. When the airpl= ane is not in coordinated flight, the yaw causes the fuel  in the wings to move sideways to find an “artificial level.= 221; The inner fuel bays should be built with flapper valves to trap some f= uel in the inner-most section of the fuel tanks during short periods of unc= oordinated flight, but even that can be negated with extended time in an uncoordinated condition. If the flappers are not = working properly, the time available for uncoordinated flight can be very s= hort…especially as the fuel quantity goes down. For these reasons, I = plan to take off and land on the right tank, and manage fuel so it is the fuller tank for landing as Craig explai= ns.

 

Famous Lancair test pilot Don Goetz once told me after his pers= onal experience with this during the first flight of a new IV-P: “I have added a new rule for flight testing your airp= lane. I want to see all the parts we sent you in the kit that you elected n= ot to install.” …this after one of our builders decided that th= ese flappers added unnecessary complexity…

 

But back to the point: Most LOBO members are on this LML and wi= ll have seen this, but we also have a lot of new, non-builder owners who may be learning these important lessons “the = hard way.” I believe you when you say that getting an engine running = after it quits during a go-around is “attention getting.” I als= o suspect that at least a few of our owners, no longer with us, failed in this attempt…

 

This would make an excellent article for our LOBO newsletter. W= ould you be willing to write it up as a “there I was” or similar format?


Thanks in advance,

Bob Pastusek

For LOBO

 

From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Craig Berl= and
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:12 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] engine shut down due to uncoordinated flight

 

Ralf,

My experience is ident= ical to yours and I have winglets.  When adding power and allowing the= ball to move off center, a wing will drop and you get some lateral force i= n combination that unloads the left fuel port.  That is why I always land and take off on the right tank. = ; With Cheltons it is easy to check the trip planner once in cruise and kno= w how much fuel you will land with.  I plan on having a few more gallo= ns in the right tank and land on the right tank. I keep fuel balanced within 8 gallons or so and I never have to trim the a= ilerons.  If a wing is low, it is always due to rudder trim.  I d= o not have a yaw damper.  It is important to keep the ball centered on= takeoff with full fuel to prevent losing fuel out the left vent.

Craig Berland

N7VG=

 

Dear subscribers,

I noticed a phenomena on my 4P that I thought might = be worth sharing to see if it is unique or may be others experienced someth= ing similar:

When my ball is significantly out of center over a l= onger period of time (>30 sec), my fuel selector is on left, and I have = less than 15 gals in my left tank my engine will quit due to fuel starvatio= n.

It happens mainly when I am practicing approaches: o= n the missed go around, when I am busy applying power, getting gears and fl= aps up, selecting my next way point in the GPS, changing my approach plates= … if I am on the left tank with low fuel and I forget to retrim the rudder for the changed power setting my en= gine will shut down due to fuel starvation. My fuel indicator will then sho= w zero for the left tank. Switching the tanks and applying high boost bring= s it back to life within seconds. After 30 seconds or so I can see the original amount of fuel again in the = left tank. It is not a big deal anymore because I know how to fix it but it= certainly caught my full attention the first time.

In climb with full fuel I can also notice that I am = loosing fuel out of the left vent on the wing tip if I don’t keep my = ball in the middle.

In straight and level flight I can run this tank dry= with the exact amount of unusable fuel to which I calibrated my fuel indic= ator on the ground.

The only explanation that I have for this phenomena = is that this uncoordinated flight situation must create some kind of vacuum= on my wing tip around the vent port that sucks the fuel out towards the wi= ng tip away from the fuselage. I have the regular wing tips and not the winglets.

Any input or advice is appreciated.

Ralf

 



--_000_48cc6f23766f47689604947400290a48BLUPR07MB403namprd07pro_--