X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.68] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTP id 6395951 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 30 Jul 2013 00:11:26 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.68; envelope-from=colyncase@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=p88fnTdBg3alH98qP7OcWhdXKHWqnpgWx0RCT1J2cOZQCH20yainZ3i4bjM7Dic/; h=Received:From:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:To:References:Message-Id:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [72.92.134.55] (helo=[192.168.1.24]) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1V41Gs-0007Qp-N5 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 30 Jul 2013 00:10:51 -0400 From: Colyn Case Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-17--434225518 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Potential Problem-Engine Vibration Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 00:10:49 -0400 In-Reply-To: To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Message-Id: <1AE113E6-7957-47A8-AAC6-6A2CEBEEC27B@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) X-ELNK-Trace: 63d5d3452847f8b1d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da9401feaf1c3553c3e1ca715414f61fbebb3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 72.92.134.55 --Apple-Mail-17--434225518 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Blue On Jul 28, 2013, at 3:29 PM, Paul Miller wrote: Agreed, I wouldn't have the nerve to pitch that to hartzell and mr = brown. They are not fly by nights at hartzell. The issue is whether a = common problem exists. I think Hartzell system wide manufacturing = defect can be safely moved to low priority. Hartzell does a thorough = vibration analysis on engine prop combinations so I don't see how = something new cropped up there. Lyc had the crankshaft issue on the Malibu, I don't recall it being = related to prop at all. I think it is a mistake to look for hartzell 550 combination as being a = factor in vibration since the sample is largely hartzell and 550. You = need some other way to differentiate between vibrating and non vibrating = installations. I can safely say that if I found 20 contact points in = the legacy over the last four years I would be cataloging those points = first and confirming they are not in play. Once those are ruled out = then you have something to work with. A database of 550s with and = without problems may not go very far to getting a resolution. Of course = not. But it will establish a couple basic facts and identify a group of = people interested in drilling deeper. In the meantime, do you want to = publish your list of 20 contact points? Paul On 2013-07-28, at 14:37, "Danny" wrote: > WHAT? That makes no sense at all. Where did you ever get such an = idea? > =20 > Danny > LNC2-360 Mk-II > Nothing is foolproof to the sufficiently talented fool. > =20 > From: Craig Schulze [mailto:craig@skybolt.net]=20 > Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 2:21 PM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: Potential Problem-Engine Vibration > =20 > It could be possible for wear or manufacturing process to allow one = blade to have more play in pitch operation than the others.=20 >=20 > Blue Skies, > Craig Schulze=20 >=20 > On Jul 27, 2013, at 5:36 PM, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: >=20 > How is that mechanically possible? All blades are attached to the same = pitch change mechanisms Elton=20 > =20 > J >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Jul 27, 2013, at 12:34 PM, Steve Colwell = wrote: >=20 > That is a possibility I had not considered, I will ask Hartzell about = it. Another possibility is the movable crankshaft counter weights = failing to position correctly. >=20 > Steve Colwell=20 > =20 > =20 > From: Craig Schulze > To: Steve Colwell =20 > Cc: "lml@lancaironline.net" =20 > Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 7:42 AM > Subject: Re: Potential Problem-Engine Vibration >=20 > It sounds to me that you may have an issue with your prop hub not = changing the pitch exactly the same on all the blades. The vibration = you are feeling is one blade taking a larger bite of air and then = causing everything to wobble. It settles in sometimes but when you = change the power setting the pitch on the prop is adjusted by the hub = unevenly. =20 >=20 > Blue Skies, > Craig Schulze > Lancair N73S >=20 >=20 > On Jul 25, 2013, at 1:22 PM, "Steve Colwell" = wrote: >=20 > In the first 40 hours I had vibration so severe it caused stick shake. = This > has continued intermittently more or less for almost 400 hours. >=20 > First I found and fixed several Cowl Interference locations, then = adjusted > and notched the hat section of the nose gear door. >=20 > At about 50 hours I paid Barrett to tear down the engine to replace = the > Performance pistons (prematurely worn top rings) with stock ECI = pistons. > Also found a cracked case. >=20 > We had the Kelly Alternator balanced and rebuilt at a shop recommended = by > Bill Bainbridge of B & C. Sorry I can't remember the name, the Legacy = file > is in Texas.=20 >=20 > I rounded the leading edges of the elevator counter weights when = building so > I temporarily squared them off to go back to the stock shape for = testing. >=20 > All gear doors were checked in flight with video camera.=20 >=20 > The pitch trim hinge pin had play, I replaced it per Chris Zavatson's = web > page. >=20 > Along the way the prop was balanced twice. >=20 > I could not get more that the usual vibration (which always seemed to = be too > much) on test flights. Then, unpredictably, vibration magnitude would > increase with power reduction on some later flight. I say = unpredictably > because I could not get increased vibration by attempting to duplicate > previous conditions. Let's hope a solution surfaces at Airventure. >=20 > Steve Colwell Legacy RG IO550-N with Hartzell 3 Blade >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Paul > Miller > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:22 AM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: Potential Problem-Engine Vibration >=20 > Ed Martin's legacy is smooth. Mine has had a lot of annoying vibes as = you > describe but virtually all have been removed with lots of cowling > interference fixes and plug change. Many pilots forget the alternator = can > be a wicked source of vibration and it is almost in the same plane as = the > prop. >=20 > The problems I had originally were in that freq range and visible at = the > wingtip also. >=20 > Paul >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-17--434225518 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Blue

On Jul = 28, 2013, at 3:29 PM, Paul Miller wrote:

Agreed, I = wouldn't have the nerve to pitch that to hartzell and mr brown. =  They are not fly by nights at hartzell.   The issue is = whether a common problem exists.  I think Hartzell system wide = manufacturing defect can be safely moved to low priority. Hartzell does = a thorough vibration analysis on engine prop combinations so I don't see = how something new cropped up there.

Lyc had the = crankshaft issue on the Malibu, I don't recall it being related to prop = at all.

I think it is a mistake to look for = hartzell 550 combination as being a factor in vibration since the sample = is largely hartzell and 550.  You need some other way to = differentiate between vibrating and non vibrating installations.  I = can safely say that if I found 20 contact points in the legacy over the = last four years I would be cataloging those points first and confirming = they are not in play.   Once those are ruled out then you have = something to work with.   A database of 550s with and without = problems may not go very far to getting a resolution.  Of course not.  But it = will establish a couple basic facts and identify a group of people = interested in drilling deeper.   In the meantime, do you want to = publish your list of 20 contact points?


Paul

On 2013-07-28, at = 14:37, "Danny" <danny@n107sd.com> = wrote:

WHAT?  That makes = no sense at all.  Where did you ever get such an = idea?

 

Danny

LNC2-360 = Mk-II

Nothing is foolproof to the sufficiently = talented fool.

 

From: Craig Schulze [mailto:craig@skybolt.net] =
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subj= ect: [LML] Re: Potential Problem-Engine = Vibration

 

It = could be possible for wear or manufacturing process to allow one blade = to have more play in pitch operation than the others. 

Blue = Skies,

Craig = Schulze 


On Jul 27, 2013, at 5:36 PM, vtailjeff@aol.com = wrote:

How is that mechanically possible? All blades are = attached to the same pitch change mechanisms = Elton 

 

J

Sent from my = iPad


On Jul 27, 2013, at 12:34 PM, Steve = Colwell <mcmess1919@yahoo.com> = wrote:

That is a possibility I had not considered, I will = ask Hartzell about it.  Another possibility is the movable = crankshaft counter weights failing to position correctly.

Steve = Colwell 

 

 

From: Craig Schulze <craig@skybolt.net>
To: = Steve Colwell <mcmess1919@yahoo.com> =
Cc: "lml@lancaironline.net" <lml@lancaironline.net> =
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: = Potential Problem-Engine Vibration


It sounds to me that you may have an issue = with your prop hub not changing the pitch exactly the  same on all = the blades.  The vibration you are feeling is one blade taking a = larger bite of air and then causing everything to wobble.  It = settles in sometimes but when you change the power setting the pitch on = the prop is adjusted by the hub unevenly. 

Blue = Skies,
Craig Schulze
Lancair N73S


On Jul 25, 2013, at = 1:22 PM, "Steve Colwell" <mcmess1919@yahoo.com> = wrote:

In the first 40 hours I had vibration so severe it caused = stick shake.  This
has continued intermittently more or less for = almost 400 hours.

First I found and fixed several Cowl = Interference locations, then adjusted
and notched the hat section of = the nose gear door.

At about 50 hours I paid Barrett to tear down = the engine to replace the
Performance pistons (prematurely worn top = rings) with stock ECI pistons.
Also found a cracked case.

We = had the Kelly Alternator balanced and rebuilt at a shop recommended = by
Bill Bainbridge of B & C.  Sorry I can't remember the = name, the Legacy file
is in Texas.

I rounded the leading = edges of the elevator counter weights when building so
I temporarily = squared them off to go back to the stock shape for testing.

All = gear doors were checked in flight with video camera.

The pitch = trim hinge pin had play, I replaced it per Chris Zavatson's = web
page.

Along the way the prop was balanced twice.

I = could not get more that the usual vibration (which always seemed to be = too
much) on test flights.  Then, unpredictably, vibration = magnitude would
increase with power reduction on some later = flight.  I say unpredictably
because I could not get increased = vibration by attempting to duplicate
previous conditions.  Let's = hope a solution surfaces at Airventure.

Steve Colwell  = Legacy RG IO550-N with Hartzell 3 Blade



-----Original = Message-----
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Paul
Miller
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:22 AM
To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Subject= : [LML] Re: Potential Problem-Engine Vibration

Ed Martin's legacy = is smooth.  Mine has had a lot of annoying vibes as you
describe = but virtually all have been removed with lots of cowling
interference = fixes and plug change.  Many pilots forget the alternator can
be = a wicked source of vibration and it is almost in the same plane as = the
prop.

The problems I had originally were in that freq = range and visible at the
wingtip = also.

Paul



= --Apple-Mail-17--434225518--