X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 15:04:50 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm29.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com ([98.139.212.188] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.4) with ESMTPS id 6245372 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 05 May 2013 10:34:10 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.212.188; envelope-from=airmale4@yahoo.com Received: from [98.139.212.146] by nm29.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2013 14:33:35 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.223] by tm3.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2013 14:33:35 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1032.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2013 14:33:35 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 263866.45943.bm@omp1032.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 13134 invoked by uid 60001); 5 May 2013 14:33:35 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=gtF0BK0pYN4iaAsesKa5L/KDl6vObSqVYkWMJpWU0pDbvsa4xP00JT8MLQqj4yIqRu/NYzR8p9ugiosvy0GuVENegAct2z+/AH2+k7GBzAWEaivDOLaUrJm6IiLhU7Xt2pnxF+OfMj6RzO9AClNHIcK0SI289wk+kW2gvsCoZ8c=; X-YMail-OSG: fovGD0oVM1kQ14yIUHUS45mxxdoJONYUdowML4Ehr8D5T39 5DKcnKVIooozXwvxMRYwP6gwtd3yG5sVde9GzFQ8GqBxypgb0UEJqMIIIo8A NJ4RGSG6LxU1QPkdTjwWlEPyYOIB0LIfBJlDBMXntPfJOW9ZEsOB4dRu8dli RBDeU77a5DmtOJcsR84DFRk1KU.oFspWhrmnlVi.2N14EHxULjYU7sNJd1m5 fX8AV4iE9QCyyStWzkJjq9Iw.r3P.gq8ommMtFqakXsu0UoudrTfQYqzYpeL N4RKZLm884dzszjry6zCW1CW2UpRtcYmG7joLlW6fa3m0IwInbbzmWU3MR84 ViCo__LOlC.H6r.Kdkiv2SZt3g4YqlCB_xS.5m3ZypiVfHXzMjXTm_DjVWYJ ZhMIU5gQ97jsLeo1LrLWFl5A5V47ZxpArhpnduJF4xnEMzvZf_u8bfoBOBW_ XZJsyd_GqhACvTRCK85x7WF4ubG4e7gqG7N7qrbEhqdWPMym.RwFE8ZTOSPd Um0PdQnDLigQI5uLUEakZCHqWUrlg.TcmIPbRuvHqG1rNj2lKwZG8cDFH6Oh Z4Osc1kICNraOYmq9rCg.i_t65F1pGLNrUmpo607vJfE3CX3_d1yEiNTHhY9 Ab_3aalO0OauMhYowG.5JMawaNPU_61pEbX.xFYTW_Wdb8CcZvOsdB.0e1w0 T1GKA0aKOs03349mXEetvUX8jURn.CFAce4BV28lHxZVqkUBNyQ-- Received: from [75.91.119.53] by web162801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 05 May 2013 07:33:34 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,VGVkIAoKwqDCoMKgIElmIHRoZSBwb3dlciBvdXRwdXQgcHJvbWlzZWQgaXMgYWNjdXJhdGUgMjIwMDAgd2lsbCBiZSB0aGUgbWF4IHNwZWVkIGFsdGl0dWRlIGJ1dCB5b3UgKGlmIHRoZSBvdXRwdXQgaXMgbm9ybWF0KSBnZXQgYSBub3JtYWwgcG93ZXIgb2YgNzUlIG9yIDY1JSB0aGUgbWF4IGNydWlzZSBzcGVlZCBhbHRpdHVkZSB3aWxsIGJlIHNpZ25pZmljYW50bHkgaGlnaGVyIHRoYXQgMjIwMDAuIEJVVCAodGhlIGJpZyBtYXliZSl0aGVyZSBhcmUgbWFueSBmYWN0b3JzIHRoYXQgbWFrZSB0aGlzIHJ1bGUBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.141.536 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1367764414.6010.YahooMailNeo@web162801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 07:33:34 -0700 (PDT) From: J H Webb Reply-To: J H Webb Subject: Re: [LML] Re: FL270 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="2065536479-1502140995-1367764414=:6010" --2065536479-1502140995-1367764414=:6010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ted =0A=0A=A0=A0=A0 If the power output promised is accurate 22000 will be = the max speed altitude but you (if the output is normat) get a normal power= of 75% or 65% the max cruise speed altitude will be significantly higher t= hat 22000. BUT (the big maybe)there are many factors that make this rule fl= exible. A few of the most common problems are with the turbocharger. The fi= rst big bugaboo is turbo stalls (air is no longer flowing thru the turbo co= rrectly either hot side or cold side). These can be minor loss of power or = catastrophic loss of power. The issue primarily that automotive engineering= normally deals with atmospheric pressures only down to about 60% of sea le= vel pressure. One half ot the atmospheric is below 18000 feet. Then we get = into controls, can the waste gate ever close completely as this makes for a= problem called bootstrapping. In aircraft designs the waste gate is preven= ted from fully closing which still exposes one to the problem but minimizes= the intensity of the Issue.=0A=A0=A0 Then we get into more frustrating issues.= This has to do with the matching of the power plant and the normal perform= ance range of the turbocharger. Leaving that behind for a second a common p= roblem is the spark generation system, with altitude the air resistance dro= ps and arcing becomes a greater and greater problem. It took years to final= ly mostly eliminate this kind of problem. Pressurized mags, better insulate= d leads, and better spark plugs finally improved this area of reliable powe= r. Once again automotive does not normally have these problems because they= do not go high enough.=0A=0A=A0=A0 But back to your question, "What is the= airframe limit for N540TF?" The first airframe limit is going to be the la= ck of adequate directional stability, which I have mentioned before. They h= ave a saying in aircraft engineering 'power is destabilizing'. This is very= true in the case of the LIV as it has weak directionally stability so addi= ng power shows up first in direction stability issues.I mentioned early on = that you will probably need to add a ventral fin. Not the dual fin that is = being sold to Lancair owners but a single fin about 3 feet long and 8 to 10= inches deep. Every over powered Lancair that I have flown has needed it bu= t some owners have chosen to not to do so. The result is the aircraft is al= most uncontrollable with the abrupt loss of power (either a throttle pull o= r engine failure) and this is just the time you what another problem. It is= especially nasty in turbulence.What causes this is after a power reduction= the propeller up front produces drag which has the effect of a big surface in front of the cowlin= g, which over powers the limited vertical fin and rudder.=A0=0A=A0=A0 The b= ottom line is the airplane is experimental and some or all of these issues = will appear plus some slightly unexpected issues too. ie door not opening..= .=0A=0ASorry I went on so long but there is a lot more issues requiring pla= nning.=0A=0AJack=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Ted N= oel =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Saturday, Apr= il 6, 2013 9:47 AM=0ASubject: [LML] Re: FL270=0A =0A=0A=0AI thought the cab= in pressure relationship, 8,000' cabin at FL280 was the emphasis in the man= uals. Of course, that presents an interesting question: "What will be the a= irframe limit for N540TF?" It has 600 hp, and is supposed to be able to mai= ntain sea level power to FL220. Hmmm=0A=0ATed Noel=0A=0AOn 4/5/2013 12:24 P= M, pete@leapfrogventures.com wrote: =0A =0A>I believe the service ceiling i= s FL280.=A0 I have had my ES-P up that high twice.=A0 While it was a slow c= limb above FL250, it was still well over 100 ft/min at FL280.=A0 You IV guy= s should have no problem getting that high.=A0 I think only RVSM limits you= from going higher.=0A>=A0=0A>Pete=0A>=A0=0A>From:William A. Hogarty [mailt= o:billhogarty@gmail.com] =0A>Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 7:50 PM=0A>To: = Lancair Mailing List=0A>Subject: Re: [LML] FL270=0A>=A0=0A>Dico:=0A>=A0=0A>= Someone told me that the "service ceiling" is defined as point at which the= aircraft, at full power, cannot maintain=0A>100 ft/min climb.=0A>=A0=0A>An= other someone mentioned that the IV-P was limited in altitude by engine par= ameters.=A0 If that is correct, then each=0A>aircraft would probably vary i= n max altitude by builders skill and technique=A0 in building.=0A>=A0=0A>Fi= nally, he who builds the lightest plane with the minimum accessary drag and= the tightest cowling, might be the winner.=0A>=A0=0A>..........sounds like= it might be an interesting competition.=0A>=A0=0A>Regards, Bill Hogarty=0A= >=A0=0A>On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Dico Reijers wrote:=0A>Hi All,=0A>=0A>I was watching this flight tonight and noticed t= hey were=0A up to FL270.... The POH says that FL250 is the cei= ling....=0A am I to presume that this is just a guideline and = you can=0A go higher?=A0 Does anyone know how high it will act= ually go?=0A>=0A>http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N28487=0A>=0A>-dr=0A>= =0A>=0A>=0A>-- =0A>Regards,=0A>=0A>Dico Reijers=0A>=0A>InternetWorks Ltd.= =0A>300 University Avenue=0A>Charlottetown=0A>PE, C1A 4M4=0A>=0A>902-892-46= 71 (T)=0A>888-368-9484 (F)=0A>=0A>www.internetworks.ca=0A>www.apartmentspei= .com =0A>=A0 --2065536479-1502140995-1367764414=:6010 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ted
=
=     If the power output promised is accurate 22000 wil= l be the max speed altitude but you (if the output is normat) get a normal = power of 75% or 65% the max cruise speed altitude will be significantly hig= her that 22000. BUT (the big maybe) there are ma= ny factors that make this rule flexible. A few of the most common problems = are with the turbocharger. The first big bugaboo is turbo stalls (air is no= longer flowing thru the turbo correctly either hot side or cold side). The= se can be minor loss of power or catastrophic loss of power. The issue prim= arily that automotive engineering normally deals with atmospheric pressures only down to about 60% of sea level pressure. One half ot the atmospheric is below 18000 feet. Then we get into = controls, can the waste gate ever close completely as this makes for a prob= lem called bootstrapping. In aircraft designs the waste gate is prevented f= rom fully closing which still exposes one to the problem but minimizes the = intensity of the Issue.
   Then w= e get into more frustrating issues. This has to do with the matching of the= power plant and the normal performance range of the turbocharger. Leaving = that behind for a second a common problem is the spark generation system, w= ith altitude the air resistance drops and arcing becomes a greater and grea= ter problem. It took years to finally mostly eliminate this kind of problem. Pressurized mags, better insulated leads, and better spark plugs = finally improved this area of reliable power. Once again automotive does no= t normally have these problems because they do not go high enough.
   But back to your question, "What = is the airframe limit for N540TF?" The first airframe limit is going to be = the lack of adequate directional stability, which I have mentioned before. = They have a saying in aircraft engineering 'power is destabilizing'. This i= s very true in the case of the LIV as it has weak directionally stability s= o adding power shows up first in direction stability issues. I mentioned ea= rly on that you will probably need to add a ventral fin. Not the dual fin t= hat is being sold to Lancair owners but a single fin about 3 feet long and 8 to 10 inches deep. Every over powered Lancair that I have flown has = needed it but some owners have chosen to not to do so. The result is the ai= rcraft is almost uncontrollable with the abrupt loss of power (either a thr= ottle pull or engine failure) and this is just the time you what another pr= oblem. It is especially nasty in turbulence. What causes this is after a po= wer reduction the propeller up front produces drag which has the effect of = a big surface in front of the cowling, which over powers the limited vertic= al fin and rudder. 
   The b= ottom line is the airplane is experimental and some or all of these issues = will appear plus some slightly unexpected issues too. ie door not opening..= .

Sorry I went on so long but there is a lot more issues requiring planning.=

Jack<= br>

From: Ted Noel <tednoel@cfl.rr.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Saturday, April 6, 2013 9:47 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: FL270

=0A= =0A=0A =0A =0A
=0A I thought the cabin pressure relationship= , 8,000' cabin at FL280 was=0A the emphasis in the manuals. Of course, t= hat presents an interesting=0A question: "What will be the airframe limi= t for N540TF?" It has 600=0A hp, and is supposed to be able to maintain = sea level power to FL220.=0A Hmmm
=0A
=0A Ted Noel
=0A =
=0A On 4/5/2013 12:24 PM, pete@leapfrogvent= ures.com wrote:=0A
=0A =0A =0A = =0A
=0A
I=0A believe the service ceiling = is FL280.  I have had my ES-P up=0A that high twice.  = While it was a slow climb above FL250, it=0A was still well over= 100 ft/min at FL280.  You IV guys should=0A have no proble= m getting that high.  I think only RVSM limits=0A you from = going higher.
=0A
 
=0A =
Pete
=0A
  =0A
From:=0A = William A. Hogarty [mailto:billhogarty@gmail.com]
= =0A Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 7:50 PM
=0A = To: Lancair Mailing List
=0A Subject: Re: [= LML] FL270
=0A
&= nbsp;
=0A
=0A
=0A
Dico:
=0A
=0A
= =0A
 
=0A =
=0A
=0A
Someone told me that the "service=0A ceiling" is defined= as point at which the aircraft, at=0A full power, cannot main= tain
=0A
=0A
=0A
100 ft/min climb.
=0A
=0A =
=0A
  =0A
=0A
=0A
Another someone mentioned that the IV-P=0A = was limited in altitude by engine parameters.  If that is=0A = correct, then each
=0A
=0A
=0A =
aircraft would probably vary i= n max=0A altitude by builders skill and technique  in bui= lding.
=0A
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A =0A
Finally, he who bui= lds the lightest=0A plane with the minimum accessary drag and = the tightest=0A cowling, might be the winner.
=0A =
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
..........sounds like it might be an=0A = interesting competition.
=0A
=0A <= div>=0A
 
=0A =
=0A
=0A
Regards, Bill Hogarty
=0A
=0A
= =0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Dico=0A = Reijers <dico@inte= rnetworks.ca>=0A wrote:
=0A
Hi All,
=0A
=0A = I was watching this flight tonight and noticed they were=0A = up to FL270.... The POH says that FL250 is the ceiling....=0A = am I to presume that this is just a guideline and you can=0A g= o higher?  Does anyone know how high it will actually go?
=0A =
=0A http://flightaware.com/live/flig= ht/N28487
=0A
=0A -dr
=0A =
=0A
=0A
=0A = --
=0A Regards,
=0A
=0A = Dico Reijers
=0A
=0A InternetWorks Lt= d.
=0A 300 University Avenue
=0A Charlottet= own
=0A PE, C1A 4M4
=0A
=0A = 902-892-4671 (T)
=0A 888-368-9484 (F)
=0A
= =0A www.internetworks.ca
=0A www.apartm= entspei.com=0A
=0A
=0A  
=0A
=0A <= /div>=0A =0A
=0A=0A


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