X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 10:59:54 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nk11p08mm-asmtp002.mac.com ([17.158.58.247] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 6000922 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 08 Jan 2013 10:59:05 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=17.158.58.247; envelope-from=gw5@me.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ngj2vtaTvbCsPji8e3zt7w)" Received: from [10.55.209.97] (216-147-135-217.globalsat.net [216.147.135.217]) by nk11p08mm-asmtp002.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-26.01(7.0.4.26.0) 64bit (built Jul 13 2012)) with ESMTPSA id <0MGB000VKDP7TI30@nk11p08mm-asmtp002.mac.com> for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 08 Jan 2013 15:58:29 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.9.8327,1.0.431,0.0.0000 definitions=2013-01-08_06:2013-01-08,2013-01-08,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1203120001 definitions=main-1301080115 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Stalls & Spins References: From: George Wehrung X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) In-reply-to: X-Original-Message-id: <7BBD7173-4FA5-4532-A038-AD5EF6E92B88@me.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 20:30:42 +0430 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List --Boundary_(ID_ngj2vtaTvbCsPji8e3zt7w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Interesting. I would love to see the video. Do you have a link to the video= ? Also is there guidance on where to get/make the stall strips and how to plac= e them on the wings? Sent from my iPad On Jan 8, 2013, at 19:02, Ron Galbraith wrote: > There is an ES video that shows what happens when you stall an ES at full a= ft CG. Spins immediately, takes 2.5 turns and 3000' to recover. Test Pilot= was one turn from bailing out. Install an AOA system, install stall strip= s, practice flying at low speeds and learn what impending stalls feel like. T= he airframe gives you many indications that you are too slow. Learn them. = Fly safe. =20 >=20 > Ron >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On Jan 8, 2013, at 8:34 AM, George Wehrung wrote: >=20 >> John,=20 >>=20 >> I would be interested in watching some of the videos on the ES in particu= lar if not the other airframes. Are they posted on the Internet by chance, d= oubtful but I thought I'd ask. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >> On Jan 8, 2013, at 15:50, John Smith wrote: >>=20 >>> =46rom my perspective, the key phrase is spin resistance. >>>=20 >>> Having researched the NASA material and having also seen the Lancair vid= eos of actual flight testing, rightly or wrongly, I installed the wing cuffs= to the Legacy on the basis that they seemed to offer the opportunity to mak= e it harder to get into trouble, but accepting that if pushed too far into a= spin, then the aircraft may or may not be recoverable. So, if one accepts t= he view of many which is that "as was", the aircraft was not spin recoverabl= e, there would only appear to be upside from installing the cuffs. The flaw i= s, of course, that if indeed the Legacy is spin recoverable without wing cuf= fs, then the addition of the wing cuffs may preclude spin recovery! >>>=20 >>> Unless someone goes to the trouble of spin testing the Legacy, or any ot= her type fitted with cuffs, one will never know whether spin recoveries are p= ossible under what flight and loading circumstances and, of course, with or w= ithout wing cuffs. >>>=20 >>> Meanwhile, per my prior post on this, all I can say is that the albeit v= ery limited flight testing (straight and level, and continuous 30deg AoB tur= ns) in my Legacy fitted with the cuffs shows that there is plenty of warning= of the impending stall =E2=80=93 stall strips give the first "gentle" warni= ng", followed by the more severe intermittent "shuddering" as the centre sec= tion drops in and out of the stall (whilst the outboard sections are still f= lying). >>>=20 >>> I'm happy to talk to anyone if they are interested to talk about this mo= re=E2=80=A6. numbers below, but please note time is UTC + 8!! >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>>=20 >>> John >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> John N G Smith >>> Tel / fax: +61-8-9385-8891 >>> Mobile: +61-409-372-975 >>> Email: john@jjts.net.au >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> From: >>> Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List >>> Date: Tuesday, 8 January 2013 2:25 AM >>> To: >>> Subject: [LML] Re: Stalls & Spins >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Posted for "Peter Field" : >>>=20 >>> Dear Lancair Drivers: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I've been following the discussion on stalls and spins and I want to add= >>> some additional factual information purely for your personal consumption= and >>> reflection. Attached are excerpts from 10 different 1980-90 NASA flight= >>> test final reports on a series of GA airplanes in which NASA evaluated t= he >>> use of cuffs on leading edges to improve the behavior of the test airpla= ne >>> approaching the stall. For various reasons the cuffs improved lateral >>> control entering the stall, but had the adverse effect of destabilizing t= he >>> aircraft once a fully developed spin was achieved. Essentially, stall >>> behavior was improved at the sacrifice of spin recovery. Cuffs on wing >>> leading edges are an add on design fix, the more elegant solution is >>> "washout," where the wing is twisted so the outer portions of the wing >>> always operate at a lower angle of attack. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> To my knowledge, Lancair has never subjected any of their aircraft to a >>> fully developed spin matrix complete with appropriate instrumentation an= d a >>> spin recovery chute. There is no FAA requirement for them to do so - it= 's >>> an Experimental Category airplane. Early on they may have lightly touch= ed >>> on such testing; but I have never seen any documentation on a fully >>> completed spin matrix, which would involve at least 160 spins at various= >>> cg's and lateral loadings. In my opinion, it would be highly risky to f= ool >>> around much beyond the stall in any Lancair - there is no documentation t= hat >>> indicates any of these airplanes can always be recovered from a one turn= >>> incipient phase spin or any fully developed spin. Being good at spin >>> recovery isn't so much a matter of how skillful a pilot you are, it's a >>> matter of how many spins you've experienced in airplanes known to be >>> recoverable. Being familiar with the stall characteristics of your own >>> airplane should be a matter of personal preference. =20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Best regards,=20 >>>=20 >>> Pete Field (LNC2) >>>=20 >>> USNTPS graduate & spin recovery instructor >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/Lis= t.html --Boundary_(ID_ngj2vtaTvbCsPji8e3zt7w) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Interesting. I would love t= o see the video.  Do you have a link to the video?

=
Also is there guidance on where to get/make the stall strips and how to= place them on the wings?



=


Sent from my iPad

On Jan 8, 2013, at 19:02, Ron G= albraith <cfi@instructor.net>= ; wrote:

There is a= n ES video that shows what happens when you stall an ES at full aft CG. &nbs= p;Spins immediately, takes 2.5 turns and 3000' to recover.  Test Pilot w= as one turn from bailing out.   Install an AOA system, install stall st= rips, practice flying at low speeds and learn what impending stalls feel lik= e. The airframe gives you many indications that you are too slow.  Lear= n them.  Fly safe.  

Ron

Se= nt from my iPhone

On Jan 8, 2013, at 8:34 AM, George Wehrung &= lt;gw5@me.com> wrote:

John, 

I would be= interested in watching some of the videos on the ES in particular if not th= e other airframes. Are they posted on the Internet by chance, doubtful but I= thought I'd ask.




Sent from m= y iPhone

On Jan 8, 2013, at 15:50, John Smith <john@jjts.net.au> wrote:

=46rom my perspective, the key phrase= is spin resistance.

Having researched the N= ASA material and having also seen the Lancair videos of actual flight testin= g, rightly or wrongly, I installed the wing cuffs to the Legacy on the basis= that they seemed to offer the opportunity to make it harder to get into tro= uble, but accepting that if pushed too far into a spin, then the aircraft may or may not be recoverable. So, if one accepts the view of many whic= h is that "as was", the aircraft was not spin recoverable, there would only a= ppear to be upside from installing the cuffs. The flaw is, of course, that i= f indeed the Legacy is spin recoverable without wing cuffs, then the additio= n of the wing cuffs may preclude spin recovery!

Unless someone goes to the trouble of spin testing the Legacy, or a= ny other type fitted with cuffs, one will never know whether spin recoveries= are possible under what flight and loading circumstances and, of course, wi= th or without wing cuffs.

Meanwhile, per my prior p= ost on this, all I can say is that the albeit very limited flight testing (s= traight and level, and continuous 30deg AoB turns) in my Legacy fitted with t= he cuffs shows that there is plenty of warning of the impending stall =E2=80= =93 stall strips give the first "gentle" warning", followed by the more seve= re intermittent "shuddering" as the centre section drops in and out of the s= tall (whilst the outboard sections are still flying).

I'm happy to talk to anyone if they are interested to talk about this mor= e=E2=80=A6. numbers below, but please note time is UTC + 8!!

<= /div>

Regards,

John
John N G Smith
Tel / fax:    +61-8-9385-8891
Mobile:      +61-409-372-975
Email:         john@jjts.net.au

From: <marv@lancair.net>
Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List <lml@lancaironline.net>
Date: Tuesday, 8 January 2013 2:25 AM
To: <lml>
Subject: <= /span> [LML] Re: Stalls & Spins



Posted for "Peter Field" <= pfield.avn@gmail.com>:
Dear Lancair Drivers:



I've been following the discussion o= n stalls and spins and I want to add
some additional factual information purely for your personal consumption and
reflection. &n= bsp;Attached are excerpts from 10 different 1980-90 NASA flight
test final reports on a series of GA airplanes in which NASA evaluated the
us= e of cuffs on leading edges to improve the behavior of the test airplane
approaching the stall.  For various reasons the cuffs= improved lateral
control entering the stall, but had the adverse effect of destabilizing the
aircraft once a fully developed spin was ach= ieved.  Essentially, stall
behavior was improved at the sacrifice of spin recovery.  Cuffs on wing
leading edges are a= n add on design fix, the more elegant solution is
"washout," where the wing is twisted so the outer portions of the wing
always operate at a lo= wer angle of attack.



To my knowledge, Lancair has never subjected any of their aircraft to a
fully developed spin matrix complet= e with appropriate instrumentation and a
spin recovery chute.  There is no FAA requirement for them to do so - it's
a= n Experimental Category airplane.  Early on they may have lightly touched
on such testing; but I have never seen any documentation= on a fully
completed spin matrix, which would involve at least 160 spins at various
cg's and lateral loadings.  In my opinion, it= would be highly risky to fool
around much beyond the stall in any Lancair - there is no documentation that
indicates any of these airplane= s can always be recovered from a one turn
incipient phase spin or any fully developed spin.  Being good at spin
recovery isn't so mu= ch a matter of how skillful a pilot you are, it's a
matter of how many spins you've experienced in airplanes known to be
recoverable. &nbs= p;Being familiar with the stall characteristics of your own
airplane should be a matter of personal preference.  



Be= st regards,

Pete Field (LNC2)

USNTPS graduate & spin recovery instructor



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