X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 22:19:27 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.67] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c2) with ESMTP id 5814095 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 16 Oct 2012 10:57:43 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.67; envelope-from=colyncase@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=BaRBpslE1SYmlXLjm7nxeP5o4qZTfGiIR2UmZ1nXB6jSeda99jDwKUfWKk8Ko8ZY; h=Received:From:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:To:References:Message-Id:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.223.111.6] (helo=[192.168.1.24]) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1TO8Zn-0007o1-88 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 16 Oct 2012 10:56:59 -0400 From: Colyn Case Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-131-577551435 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: New Legacy Project -- oxygen [was speed brakes] X-Original-Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 10:57:02 -0400 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: <5E9DB75A-8F9B-4F7B-9B8B-30BED7AE3CFC@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-ELNK-Trace: 63d5d3452847f8b1d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da940cdd8e18f1b95f4603737a55b47b3dd48350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.223.111.6 --Apple-Mail-131-577551435 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Hi Adam, I couldn't get that link to work... Colyn On Oct 15, 2012, at 11:59 AM, Adam Molny wrote: Hi James =96 =20 First, I forgot to say congratulations on you new project! I put all my = oxygen installation photos in a web album here: https://picasaweb.google.com/102798913343718743387/OxygenSystem2011_03 =20 I oriented the band clamps so I could tighten and loosen them through = the two access panels. You can try it yourself by setting the wing stub = skin in place and reaching in through the pitot and foot well access = panels. I used ClickBond studs to mount the band clamps. I put the pitot = tube, landing lights, and strobe light power supply on the right side to = free up space and reduce the amount of plumbing around the oxygen tank. =20 Mountain High=92s carbon fiber tank is somewhat bulky because of its = increased wall thickness so I went with an aluminum tank. I chose the = biggest one that would fit the space and still be removable through the = access panel in the pilot=92s footwell (MH p/n AL-415). You can see from = the photos that I had to make cutouts in the top and bottom of the = trapezoidal opening for clearance. The next bigger tank (AL-682) would = definitely fit in the wing stub, but you would have to cut a hole in the = outboard rib of the wing stub (and pull the left wing) to remove it. Of = course, you would go with a larger tank for more duration and fewer = fillups. I found Mountain High=92s duration chart to be a bit = optimistic. I got about 8 hours out of a full tank (1800psi) with two = people on board while crossing the Rockies. Your mileage may vary. =20 Although you didn=92t ask me, here=92s some more advice. I skipped the = air conditioning system because of the weight, complexity, and expense. = I installed the Koger sunshade and simply crack the canopy open after = landing to get some fresh air. As Valin Thorne said, you don=92t need = A/C unless you live in a very hot climate. =20 The other thing I didn=92t mention is that shock cooling is a myth. Once = an engine is broken in there is plenty of clearance between the piston = and cylinder. There are lots of causes for piston scuffing but shock = cooling isn=92t one of them. That makes engine management much easier on = descent and eliminates the need for speed brakes. Climbout is another = story. It very is easy to damage your engine at high power with the = wrong mixture setting. When departing Sedona a few weeks ago, I leaned = the mixture for takeoff at Sedona=92s 5000=92 elevation. By the time I = glanced at my engine gauges 60 seconds after takeoff, the CHTs were = 460deg! I went to full rich and reduced power and the temperatures came = down within a minute or so. Bottom line: run ROP or LOP but never at = peak EGT. And yes, I=92ll be doing an oil analysis at my next oil = change. =20 Best of luck with your new project, Adam Molny N181AM From: James Seilbach [mailto:james@seilbach.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 12:52 PM To: Clark Baker Cc: Charles Brown; Adam Molny Subject: Re: New Legacy Project -- speed brakes =20 Thanks guys for the tips. I am still on the fence I guess. I had them = on my Malibu which made the decents so much easier because I could leave = in the engine power, slowly pulling it back and still decend nice and = quickly. It seems like the extra fuel on the Legacy though would be = nice to have. =20 Adam, I found a picture and some info on your oxygen installation in the = front of the wing center section. That looks like a great location for = oxygen. Has it worked well? Did you lock in the the clamps somehow? = It seems like those access panels are pretty small and it could be = difficult to refasten them if they came loose. Also, you mentioned = that you would have gone with a larger tank? Would love to hear any = additional information you have in regards to that installation. =20 Thanks again! =20 James Seilbach james@seilbach.com 970-691-9305 =20 =20 On Oct 14, 2012, at 9:29 AM, Clark Baker wrote: I do Not have speed brakes. Pete Zaccagnino recommended not getting = them- as you can do without fine. =20 They are cool and fun to play with, but I haven't missed not having = them. Weight, complexity, and cost that I could do without, esp since I = am not turbocharged. =20 Ps, if you are ordering your kit, you can ask the factory to Not put in = the pockets for the speed brakes and you will get a little extra fuel = room (or you can cut them out if you have them). =20 =20 On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:15 PM, Charles Brown = wrote: James, Best reason for speed brakes I can think of is to protect the engine = from shock cooling while accommodating ATC on slam-dunk clearances (or = if you've planned poorly). No doubt, they *are* handy, but you can use = Flaps 10 at 170 kias, and gear at 140 kias. So, unless you really want = to maintain a high airspeed and high power setting while descending, = it's fairly easy to do without. Whereas on a WunderGlider like a Mooney = (and I suspect Malibu must be similar), you really need to kill the L/D = some other way. I suspect there's also a "cool, trick, fighter-like" = mentality with some of the folks, and then I'm sure some folks are = thinking that resale will be better with a completely "stock" airplane. If my airplane were turbocharged, I'd probably go for speed brakes. I'm = guessing that the Malibu taught you the turbocharging lesson. Two of my most avid correspondents who obviously put some thought into = their flying are copied on this. Being brain dead, I've forgotten who's = got what but I seem to recall that either Clark or Adam went without = speed brakes too and might care to comment. Charley PS -- I got 74.5 gallons usable fuel; I understand that 67 is standard = but don't know what people are actually getting with speed brakes. = Dallas to Orange County non-stop with 1.5 hours left. A bladder = challenge if ever there was one. On Oct 14, 2012, at 12:24 AM, James Seilbach wrote: Another question- Most of the Legacys I have seen or read about have speed brakes = installed. =46rom what you and the CAFE report at saying, the = additional fuel is far more beneficial than the speed brakes. Why do = you think so many people choose the speed takes? ----------------------------- James Seilbach james@seilbach.com 970-691-9305 ----------------------------- On Oct 14, 2012, at 12:04 AM, James Seilbach wrote: I really appreciate your insights. My Twinstar was actually the first airplane I owned, I have since owned = a Cirrus, a Malibu, and a Turboprop Meridian. None of these had = approach speeds like the Legacy, but I am religious about type specific = and recurrent training. I plan to do the same for the Legacy. I have = a multi commercial instrument rating with about 1000 hours total time. = I think the Legacy will definitely be different and very fun to fly. Thanks again for your email, ----------------------------- James Seilbach james@seilbach.com 970-691-9305 ----------------------------- =20 --=20 Clark Baker mobile: +44 7557 804 630 bakercdb@gmail.com =20 --Apple-Mail-131-577551435 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Hi = Adam,   I couldn't get that link to = work...

Colyn

On Oct 15, = 2012, at 11:59 AM, Adam Molny wrote:

=

Hi James = =96

 

First, I forgot to say = congratulations on you new project! I put all my oxygen installation photos in a web album = here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/102798913343718743387/OxygenSystem2011_= 03

 

I oriented the band clamps so I = could tighten and loosen them through the two access panels. You can try it = yourself by setting the wing stub skin in place and reaching in through the pitot = and foot well access panels. I used ClickBond studs to mount the band clamps. I = put the pitot tube, landing lights, and strobe light power supply on the right = side to free up space and reduce the amount of plumbing around the oxygen tank. =

 

Mountain High=92s carbon fiber tank = is somewhat bulky because of its increased wall thickness so I went with an = aluminum tank. I chose the biggest one that would fit the space and still be = removable through the access panel in the pilot=92s footwell (MH p/n AL-415). You = can see from the photos that I had to make cutouts in the top and bottom of = the trapezoidal opening for clearance. The next bigger tank (AL-682) would definitely = fit in the wing stub, but you would have to cut a hole in the outboard rib of = the wing stub (and pull the left wing) to remove it. Of course, you would go with = a larger tank for more duration and fewer fillups. I found Mountain High=92s= duration chart to be a bit optimistic. I got about 8 hours out of a full tank = (1800psi) with two people on board while crossing the Rockies. Your mileage may vary.

 

Although you didn=92t ask me, = here=92s some more advice. I skipped the air conditioning system because of the = weight, complexity, and expense. I installed the Koger sunshade and simply crack = the canopy open after landing to get some fresh air. As Valin Thorne said, you = don=92t need A/C unless you live in a very hot climate. =

 

The other thing I didn=92t mention = is that shock cooling is a myth. Once an engine is broken in there is = plenty of clearance between the piston and cylinder. There are lots of causes for = piston scuffing but shock cooling isn=92t one of them. That makes engine management much easier on descent and eliminates the need for speed = brakes. Climbout is another story. It very is easy to damage your engine at high power = with the wrong mixture setting. When departing Sedona a few weeks ago, I leaned the = mixture for takeoff at Sedona=92s 5000=92 elevation. By the time I glanced at my engine gauges 60 seconds after takeoff, the CHTs were 460deg! I went = to full rich and reduced power and the temperatures came down within a minute or = so. Bottom line: run ROP or LOP but never at peak EGT. And yes, I=92ll be doing an = oil analysis at my next oil change.

 

Best of luck with your new = project,

Adam = Molny

N181AM

From: James Seilbach [mailto:james@seilbach.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 14, = 2012 12:52 PM
To: Clark Baker
Cc: Charles Brown; Adam = Molny
Subject: Re: New Legacy = Project -- speed brakes

 

Thanks guys for the tips.  I am still on the fence I guess. =   I had them on my Malibu which made the decents so much easier because I = could leave in the engine power, slowly pulling it back and still decend nice = and quickly.   It seems like the extra fuel on the Legacy though would = be nice to have.

 

Adam, I found a picture and some info on your oxygen = installation in the front of the wing center section.   That looks like a great = location for oxygen.   Has it worked well?  Did you lock in the the = clamps somehow?  It seems like those access panels are pretty small and it = could be difficult to refasten them if they came loose.   Also, you = mentioned that you would have gone with a larger tank?   Would love to hear = any additional information you have in regards to that = installation.

 

Thanks again!

 

James Seilbach

970-691-9305

 

 

On Oct 14, 2012, at 9:29 AM, Clark Baker <bakercdb@gmail.com> = wrote:


I do Not have speed brakes. Pete Zaccagnino recommended not getting = them- as you can do without fine.  

They are cool and fun to play with, but I haven't missed not = having them.  Weight, complexity, and cost that I could do without, esp = since I am not turbocharged.

 

Ps, if you are ordering your kit, you can ask the factory to Not = put in the pockets for the speed brakes and you will get a little extra fuel = room (or you can cut them out if you have them).

 

 

On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:15 PM, Charles Brown <browncc1@verizon.net> wrote:

James,

Best reason for speed brakes I can think of is to protect the engine = from shock cooling while accommodating ATC on slam-dunk clearances (or if you've = planned poorly).  No doubt, they *are* handy, but you can use Flaps 10 at = 170 kias, and gear at 140 kias.  So, unless you really want to maintain = a high airspeed and high power setting while descending, it's fairly easy to do without.  Whereas on a WunderGlider like a Mooney (and I suspect = Malibu= must be similar), you really need to kill the L/D some other way.  I suspect there's = also a "cool, trick, fighter-like" mentality with some of the folks, and then I'm sure some folks are thinking that resale will be better with a completely "stock" airplane.

If my airplane were turbocharged, I'd probably go for speed brakes. =  I'm guessing that the Malibu taught you the turbocharging lesson.

Two of my most avid correspondents who obviously put some thought into = their flying are copied on this.  Being brain dead, I've forgotten who's = got what but I seem to recall that either Clark or Adam went without speed = brakes too and might care to comment.

Charley

PS -- I got 74.5 gallons usable fuel; I understand that 67 is standard = but don't know what people are actually getting with speed brakes. =  Dallas to Orange County non-stop = with 1.5 hours left.  A bladder challenge if ever there was one.


On Oct 14, 2012, at 12:24 AM, James Seilbach wrote:

Another question-

Most of the Legacys I have seen or read about have speed brakes = installed.   =46rom what you and the CAFE report at saying, the additional = fuel is far more beneficial than the speed brakes.  Why do you think so many = people choose the speed takes?

-----------------------------
James Seilbach
james@seilbach.com
970-691-9305
-----------------------------



On Oct 14, 2012, at 12:04 AM, James Seilbach wrote:

I really appreciate your insights.

My Twinstar was actually the first airplane I owned, I have since owned = a Cirrus, a Malibu, and a Turboprop Meridian.  None of these had approach speeds like = the Legacy, but I am religious about type specific and recurrent training. =   I plan to do the same for the Legacy.   I have a multi commercial = instrument rating with about 1000 hours total time.  I think the Legacy will definitely be different and very fun to fly.

Thanks again for your email,

-----------------------------
James Seilbach
james@seilbach.com
970-691-9305
-----------------------------



 

--
Clark Baker

mobile: +44 7557 804 630

bakercdb@gmail.com

 

=
=
= --Apple-Mail-131-577551435--