X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2012 08:06:35 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm24.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.91.94] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c2) with SMTP id 5802262 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 09 Oct 2012 07:09:24 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.91.94; envelope-from=n20087@yahoo.com Received: from [72.30.22.93] by nm24.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2012 11:08:49 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.25] by tm15.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2012 11:08:49 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1025.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2012 11:08:49 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 368551.57898.bm@omp1025.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 52107 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2012 11:08:49 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=DKIM-Signature:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Subject:References:From:Content-Type:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Date:To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version; b=5hJcp1hOGu8OW4EkGJcRsHDZfb/MK2lYQlp8oDnKjmQG/9TgjCbY7sl85JuLV6vffzQHi1fZa80b5vbuYDDT7329nj5su6/cfxUhJZ2e5HNGhPiv2VOWCXjvrAsAJCy+DSpawM3tMSk47Lchs2TGTLZ3oMHKJLgFukjb0o0LHvI= ; X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: LjsXolkVM1nQS3VtzifrvD4YMKgSbaIgq6TkEcH4BzI0Zn3 o6k4mGYnkiBnXXUc2S5.OMKY6cCgy60f_9qtIJqZhu9VWkAHqhdyXKwdVs2r LaRYQhwgVnAlEcPs5EhAr9AyqE.l7LoTtBzXjocMrY3ewgx4i2cWI97iT0Ez zR7cgVHG2dVc9f_asn1sFyi0mbL4yw2fbSQzb1nSIsZQnrK_hWieWdkWdTG4 Rxh4.SO3Oyp50fmY1EJarUAaAnPbHp6ylvPM2ts5g9U0j4CHEluVvmd58vVu n22PFtV8oxyMEHmsXdOqQK0pC1.ZjqRNTgB97pbArIhX_hIjue0SkNSa0hGR pZSDIWROLLi9fRcmuorBPs225gSf3fs7ocvpO9Rm.I7XWeIHgLUdDXb70gsA gqPwfyFpf641CJL9gWz9FqoP5VR9fdT7m0pqmlMkraY3ccTW8JT5En9_dmSj FBT43GfNhTjidYiDZ88Uwn8UFVRRnNSML6nuw31YQsslw9_hAsWapXMI- X-Yahoo-SMTP: NQQt3c2swBAKSrExoA1eZuT7_w-- Received: from [10.14.88.213] (n20087@198.228.205.18 with xymcookie) by smtp113-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 09 Oct 2012 04:08:48 -0700 PDT Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Piston oil cooling jets References: From: N20087 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-398FE468-7680-417F-B768-31DC3F0AFB8E X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B176) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Message-Id: <80856453-D88D-499C-9275-9D9AC137F1D3@yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 07:08:45 -0400 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) --Apple-Mail-398FE468-7680-417F-B768-31DC3F0AFB8E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Randy Oil cooler is on a separate naca mounted to the cowl. I am not bleeding air= from the plenum for the cooler Tom Sent from my iPad On Oct 8, 2012, at 11:54 PM, Randylsnarr wrote: > Tom,=20 > That sounds close on the Lower baffling gaps. I doubt the inlet size is th= e issue. Where is your oil cooler? > Randy >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Oct 8, 2012, at 12:44 PM, N20087 wrote: >=20 >> Randy=20 >>=20 >> Thanks for the input. I had already gotten real busy with the rtv. I ha= ve not fixed the door to the doghouse but I think I will open the inlets a l= ittle. I have dropped the idea of tearing into the crankcase. I do need to= go over the lower baffles once more, the gaps are not consistent and I prob= ably have too much of the barrel exposed. I understand lycoming suggest 2.1= 25 inches on the head and 1.5 on the cylinder. Is that about where you are a= t? >>=20 >> Thanks >>=20 >> Tom >>=20 >> Sent from my iPad >>=20 >> On Oct 8, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Randylsnarr wrote: >>=20 >>> Tom, >>> Pay close attention to the air inlets and transition. You will want that= smooth. I have also seen large oil coolers mounted directly to the back of t= he baffling excessively dump the pressure on the top of the engine which you= need to get effective cooling. Anything you can do to seal up the top of th= e engine will reduce drag and cool better. You will want the baffling sealed= up tight tight tight. Put a shop light under the engine in a dark hangar an= d seal EVERYTHING with high temp RTV so the only place for your cooling air t= o go is through the cooling fins. Check the spacing on the baffling that wra= ps around the cylinders at the bottom. Those can be too tight as well. I wou= ld also radius them off instead of 90 degree bends where they are safety wir= ed together too. Also, the suggestion about closing the nose gear slot with= a door is a good one and I am planning to do this as well. There is lots of= air going in there especially at high angles of attack creating pressure in= the lower cowl. This is bad and and it slows you down too. >>> Lastly, I love my plennum. If they are done right, you will go fast and r= un cool. 365 degrees are the norm for me in cruise. >>>=20 >>> Most of this has come from my research and looking carefully at what oth= er guys have done .=20 >>> There may not be a magic bullet here. You may have several factors contr= ibuting to bad cooling.=20 >>> You should be able to get cool without having to resort to expensive eng= ine mods... >>>=20 >>> Look at set ups that are working and keep after it... >>> Good luck.. >>>=20 >>> Randy Snarr >>> N694RS >>> 235/320 >>> Sent from my iPad >>>=20 >>> On Oct 7, 2012, at 4:15 PM, steve wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Tom, >>>> =20 >>>> I have a 360 straight valve with 10:1 pistons,fuel injected with a slig= htly bigger oil cooler then normal. I increased my inlet air to four inches a= nd a stock RV baffling system sealed tight.My exit air is 3"x 17. If not car= eful (too lean) on hot days I can go over 400 on takeoff/climb out on a hot d= ay. However if I level off/ reduce power/rpm I can stop the CHTS from going= over 400, Once cooled down (stabilized) from the takeoff I can resume full= power/climb and manage the temps just fine. I never run my engine over 400 c= hts. >>>> =20 >>>> I recently ran a race in Pogosa Springs Co. it was 150 miles. I ran wi= de open and 2650rpms, I controlled the chts with fuel and never went over 39= 0. The oil peaked at 210, I averaged 254 mph. I do not have ney nossils nor a= Plenum just a tight stock RV baffling system. I expect lower CHTS once I bu= ild a nose gear door for the bottom cowl opening that has to be upsetting th= e exit air from the strut opening. I also see a plenum in the future as I cl= ean-up cooling drag that might allow me to close down inlet and exit air. Bu= t for now My cooling is fine >>>> =20 >>>> Lycon warns not to go over 400 for break-in. Doing so puts you at great= risk of glazing the cylinders and annealing the rings, which will cause blo= w-by, burning oil. Thus causing the cylinders to run hotter. This is what I w= ould suspect is your results. >>>> =20 >>>> Splitting the case and installing Ney nossils is not the answer in my o= pion. If your baffling system is correctly done with 4" inlets and adequate e= xit air you should not have a problem, just control the heat on climb out,if= you install ney nossils it may help but its the wrong band-aid at a high pr= ice. >>>> =20 >>>> It sounds to me that you will need to re-ring and hone the cylinders an= d try the break-in again. Fall is here and cooler outside temps will aid in t= he break-in just remember do not go over 400 on the break-in. >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> steve alderman 25SA 360 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: N20087 >>>> To: lml >>>> Sent: Sun, Oct 7, 2012 10:34 am >>>> Subject: [LML] Piston oil cooling jets >>>>=20 >>>> > Folks >>>>=20 >>>> This is addressed to the hard core engine experts on the forum. I woul= d love=20 >>>> your feedback on this=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I am considering having my io360 crankcase modified so that I can insta= ll piston=20 >>>> cooling jets which are standard in 200hp engines. The reason being, I h= ave had=20 >>>> to take aircraft out of service twice, once at 80 hrs and now at 160 du= e to=20 >>>> lousy break-in and high CHTs. I have done all the obvious stuff such as= plenum,=20 >>>> timing, plugs, flowed the fuel servo to the rich side, baffles etc.. I a= m=20 >>>> running 9:1 eci cerminil cylinders and they will hit 430 on climb out. = They=20 >>>> went to 450 twice in the initial break-in. They will run 370 in 75% cru= ise and=20 >>>> 340 lop >>>>=20 >>>> All this aside, the pistons at 80 hrs (both times) were coated in dark v= arnish=20 >>>> under the crown and the top of the crowns were heavily carbonized from o= il=20 >>>> blowback >>>>=20 >>>> I am just getting tired of it and don't want to pul the engine apart ag= ain=20 >>>> anytime soon after this downturn >>>>=20 >>>> So,,,I am wondering if anybody has any experience or data concerning th= e cooling=20 >>>> benefits of the piston oil nozzles. Ie is it 5 degrees or 20+ >>>>=20 >>>> Also, I am debating whether to split the crankcase myself or take the c= losed=20 >>>> case (jugs and every accessory removed) with con rods still attached to= the=20 >>>> local shop and have them split the case, do the machining and reassembl= e. The=20 >>>> shop is very very reputable but of course the cost will be higher if I g= et them=20 >>>> to do the breakdown and reassembly=20 >>>>=20 >>>> As another cooling remediation measure I was thinking of opening up the= cowl=20 >>>> inlets to 4 inches but a little reluctant due to the increased drag and= limited=20 >>>> benefit. I added an electric cowl flap by the way and achieved only a 2= degree=20 >>>> CHT improvement in climb at 130 knots Go figure! >>>>=20 >>>> Again, any feedback on my plan here would appreciated=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks in advance=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Tom=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.= html --Apple-Mail-398FE468-7680-417F-B768-31DC3F0AFB8E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Randy

=
Oil cooler is on a separate naca mounted to the cowl.  I am not bl= eeding air from the plenum for the cooler

Tom
Sent from my iPad

On Oct 8, 2012, at 11:54 PM, Randylsnarr &= lt;randylsnarr@yahoo.com> wr= ote:

Tom, <= /div>
That sounds close on the Lower baffling gaps. I doubt the inlet si= ze is the issue. Where is your oil cooler?
Randy

Sent from m= y iPad

On Oct 8, 2012, at 12:44 PM, N20087 <n20087@yahoo.com> wrote:

Randy 

Th= anks for the input.  I had already gotten real busy with the rtv.  = ;I have not fixed the door to the doghouse but I think I will open the inlet= s a little.  I have dropped the idea of tearing into the crankcase. &nb= sp;I do need to go over the lower baffles once more, the gaps are not consis= tent and I probably have too much of the barrel exposed.  I understand l= ycoming suggest 2.125 inches on the head and 1.5 on the cylinder.  Is t= hat about where you are at?

Thanks

Tom

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 8, 2012, at 1:44 P= M, Randylsnarr <randylsnarr@yaho= o.com> wrote:

=
Tom,
Pay close attention to the air inlets and transition. Yo= u will want that smooth. I have also seen large oil coolers mounted directly= to the back of the baffling excessively dump the pressure on the top of the= engine which you need to get effective cooling. Anything you can do to seal= up the top of the engine will reduce drag and cool better. You will want th= e baffling sealed up tight tight tight. Put a shop light under the engine in= a dark hangar and seal EVERYTHING with high temp RTV so the only place for y= our cooling air to go is through the cooling fins. Check the spacing on the b= affling that wraps around the cylinders at the bottom. Those can be too tigh= t as well. I would also radius them off instead of 90 degree bends where the= y are safety wired together too.  Also, the suggestion about closing th= e nose gear slot with a door is a good one and I am planning to do this as w= ell. There is lots of air going in there especially at high angles of attack= creating pressure in the lower cowl. This is bad and and it slows you down t= oo.
Lastly, I love my plennum. If they are done right, you will go fast a= nd run cool. 365 degrees are the norm for me in cruise.

=
Most of this has come from my research and looking carefully at what ot= her guys have done . 
There may not be a magic bullet here. Y= ou may have several factors contributing to bad cooling. 
You= should be able to get cool without having to resort to expensive engine mod= s...

Look at set ups that are working and keep afte= r it...
Good luck..

Randy Snarr
N694RS
235/320
Sent from my iPad

On Oct 7, 2012,= at 4:15 PM, steve <n5276j@aol.com&= gt; wrote:

Tom,
 
I have a 360 straight valve with 10:1 pistons,fuel injected with a slig= htly bigger oil cooler then normal. I increased my inlet air to four inches&= nbsp;and a stock RV baffling system sealed tight.My exit air is 3"x 17.=  If not careful (too lean) on hot days I can go over 400 on takeof= f/climb out on a hot day. However if I level off/ reduce power/rpm = ; I can stop the CHTS from going over 400, Once  cooled down (stabilize= d) from the takeoff I can resume full power/climb and manage the temps j= ust fine. I never run my engine over 400 chts.
 
 I recently ran a race in Pogosa Springs Co. it was 150 miles. I r= an wide open and 2650rpms, I controlled the chts with fuel and never went ov= er 390. The oil peaked at 210, I averaged 254 mph. I do not have ney nossils= nor a Plenum just a tight stock RV baffling system. I expect lowe= r CHTS once I build a nose gear door for the bottom cowl opening that has to= be upsetting the exit air from the strut opening. I also see a plenum in th= e future as I clean-up cooling drag that might allow me to close down i= nlet and exit air. But for now My cooling is fine
 
Lycon warns not to go over 400 for break-in. Doing so puts you at great= risk of glazing the cylinders and annealing the rings, which will caus= e blow-by, burning oil. Thus causing the cylinders to run hotter. This is wh= at I would suspect is your results.
 
Splitting the case and installing Ney nossils is not the answer in my o= pion. If your baffling system is correctly done with 4" inlets and adequate e= xit air you should not have a problem, just control the heat on climb out,if= you install ney nossils it may help but its the wrong band-aid at a hi= gh price.
 
It sounds to me that you will need to re-ring and hone the cylinders an= d try the break-in again. Fall is here and cooler outside temps will aid in t= he break-in just remember do not go over 400 on the break-in.
 
 
 
steve alderman   25SA   360



 
-= ----Original Message-----
From: N20087 <n20087@yahoo.com>= ;
To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Oct 7, 2012 10:34 am
Subject: [LML] Piston oil cooling jets

> Fo=
lks

This is addressed to the hard core engine experts on the forum.  I would lov=
e=20
your feedback on this=20

I am considering having my io360 crankcase modified so that I can install pi=
ston=20
cooling jets which are standard in 200hp engines.  The reason being, I have h=
ad=20
to take aircraft out of service twice, once at 80 hrs and now at 160 due to=20=

lousy break-in and high CHTs. I have done all the obvious stuff such as plen=
um,=20
timing, plugs, flowed the fuel servo to the rich side, baffles etc.. I am=20=

running 9:1 eci cerminil cylinders and they will hit 430 on climb out.  They=
=20
went to 450 twice in the initial break-in. They will run 370 in 75% cruise a=
nd=20
340 lop

All this aside, the pistons at 80 hrs (both times) were coated in dark varni=
sh=20
under the crown and the top of the crowns were heavily carbonized from oil=20=

blowback

I am just getting tired of it and don't want to pul the engine apart again=20=

anytime soon after this downturn

So,,,I am wondering if anybody has any experience or data concerning the coo=
ling=20
benefits of the piston oil nozzles.  Ie is it 5 degrees or 20+

Also, I am debating whether to split the crankcase myself or take the closed=
=20
case (jugs and every accessory removed) with con rods still attached to the=20=

local shop and have them split the case, do the machining and reassemble.  T=
he=20
shop is very very reputable but of course the cost will be higher if I get t=
hem=20
to do the breakdown and reassembly=20

As another cooling remediation measure I was thinking of opening up the cowl=
=20
inlets to 4 inches but a little reluctant due to the increased drag and limi=
ted=20
benefit.  I added an electric cowl flap by the way and achieved only a 2 deg=
ree=20
CHT improvement in climb at 130 knots Go figure!

Again, any feedback on my plan here would appreciated=20

Thanks in advance=20

Tom=20



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