X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 23:54:35 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm26.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com ([98.139.212.185] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c2) with ESMTPS id 5801779 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 08 Oct 2012 19:12:19 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.212.185; envelope-from=randylsnarr@yahoo.com Received: from [98.139.212.144] by nm26.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2012 23:11:42 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.198] by tm1.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2012 23:11:42 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1007.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2012 23:11:42 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 167471.41880.bm@omp1007.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 14058 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2012 23:11:42 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=DKIM-Signature:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Subject:References:From:Content-Type:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Date:To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version; b=TLGBLjpjiGDfFlhKrM5PKx9ltsEsssQdEK4PerMVob/vO+tLJkdWTC7R/BUzhKAgFbB6OukFXGglfiNK5ZzT0FdZBbBEMuIRzJ9jIre4jtr3u514MATP7t9f5dDp8wFJdcetLpfJ8XvuthbvS4OFYVGdiAxAUvE9zTzKHd2xkRo= ; X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: xSRXLHcVM1kxz.mB.pejabRu71aXtESU4zgoHUlOwyPleyG E1rs7jy3bouDuKtIbd4bQpCtQgmIpCYjn.2Ri21kDegr_JwNTGhy9A7HHjF2 rucaFvVCQE3h0ZtjWuiMjN3Ife7H..mtkpexhljPG_WUUUz.rOiARzDsa5w9 HOEhYzTFIypzuVedQeFP1aVq3WXTWsi_Mas_CHelM4Z_mv74Z_oNccbqaf3. NFTWhepJH.asuPq4Km92lWQhJclK9tY7qGPKAh4vlr1nYANkb8FHztSbO_CW 7SHFnhf4G286DBRZLZqAcnUD2r9evS6RwRMYxc1YgKsSxsiFJXidBQkY2KgT F1QZuOyGJptTBpP6Z2eGWdnI317x2lNG7mzXmQjIMB5XbiPNwxe726USGLFK xgsM6XNrDbBpLUQ1JiM8OsJhAQCifQgbLnwR9QXu5UEsqMnzidvuAIdPe7DU UUYaSqdl2VlYWFasmEYhYiqqZifEYf11RdSK_egREUiKd_m2X1AZY74NHHg- - X-Yahoo-SMTP: tg4YEXeswBAq79ZTs5A79J5zDY9lAVNV Received: from [192.168.1.102] (randylsnarr@76.8.220.20 with xymcookie) by smtp118-mob.biz.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 08 Oct 2012 16:11:41 -0700 PDT Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Piston oil cooling jets References: From: Randylsnarr Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-CF375536-E660-4353-82E4-77A1753E5C34 X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9A334) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Message-Id: <2C11A45A-E7F3-4013-B81C-0FA178855CC0@yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 17:11:41 -0600 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) --Apple-Mail-CF375536-E660-4353-82E4-77A1753E5C34 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Tom,=20 That sounds close on the Lower baffling gaps. I doubt the inlet size is the i= ssue. Where is your oil cooler? Randy Sent from my iPad On Oct 8, 2012, at 12:44 PM, N20087 wrote: > Randy=20 >=20 > Thanks for the input. I had already gotten real busy with the rtv. I hav= e not fixed the door to the doghouse but I think I will open the inlets a li= ttle. I have dropped the idea of tearing into the crankcase. I do need to g= o over the lower baffles once more, the gaps are not consistent and I probab= ly have too much of the barrel exposed. I understand lycoming suggest 2.125= inches on the head and 1.5 on the cylinder. Is that about where you are at= ? >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Tom >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Oct 8, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Randylsnarr wrote: >=20 >> Tom, >> Pay close attention to the air inlets and transition. You will want that s= mooth. I have also seen large oil coolers mounted directly to the back of th= e baffling excessively dump the pressure on the top of the engine which you n= eed to get effective cooling. Anything you can do to seal up the top of the e= ngine will reduce drag and cool better. You will want the baffling sealed up= tight tight tight. Put a shop light under the engine in a dark hangar and s= eal EVERYTHING with high temp RTV so the only place for your cooling air to g= o is through the cooling fins. Check the spacing on the baffling that wraps a= round the cylinders at the bottom. Those can be too tight as well. I would a= lso radius them off instead of 90 degree bends where they are safety wired t= ogether too. Also, the suggestion about closing the nose gear slot with a d= oor is a good one and I am planning to do this as well. There is lots of air= going in there especially at high angles of attack creating pressure in the= lower cowl. This is bad and and it slows you down too. >> Lastly, I love my plennum. If they are done right, you will go fast and r= un cool. 365 degrees are the norm for me in cruise. >>=20 >> Most of this has come from my research and looking carefully at what othe= r guys have done .=20 >> There may not be a magic bullet here. You may have several factors contri= buting to bad cooling.=20 >> You should be able to get cool without having to resort to expensive engi= ne mods... >>=20 >> Look at set ups that are working and keep after it... >> Good luck.. >>=20 >> Randy Snarr >> N694RS >> 235/320 >> Sent from my iPad >>=20 >> On Oct 7, 2012, at 4:15 PM, steve wrote: >>=20 >>> Tom, >>> =20 >>> I have a 360 straight valve with 10:1 pistons,fuel injected with a sligh= tly bigger oil cooler then normal. I increased my inlet air to four inches a= nd a stock RV baffling system sealed tight.My exit air is 3"x 17. If not car= eful (too lean) on hot days I can go over 400 on takeoff/climb out on a hot d= ay. However if I level off/ reduce power/rpm I can stop the CHTS from going= over 400, Once cooled down (stabilized) from the takeoff I can resume full= power/climb and manage the temps just fine. I never run my engine over 400 c= hts. >>> =20 >>> I recently ran a race in Pogosa Springs Co. it was 150 miles. I ran wid= e open and 2650rpms, I controlled the chts with fuel and never went over 390= . The oil peaked at 210, I averaged 254 mph. I do not have ney nossils nor a= Plenum just a tight stock RV baffling system. I expect lower CHTS once I bu= ild a nose gear door for the bottom cowl opening that has to be upsetting th= e exit air from the strut opening. I also see a plenum in the future as I cl= ean-up cooling drag that might allow me to close down inlet and exit air. Bu= t for now My cooling is fine >>> =20 >>> Lycon warns not to go over 400 for break-in. Doing so puts you at great r= isk of glazing the cylinders and annealing the rings, which will cause blow-= by, burning oil. Thus causing the cylinders to run hotter. This is what I wo= uld suspect is your results. >>> =20 >>> Splitting the case and installing Ney nossils is not the answer in my op= ion. If your baffling system is correctly done with 4" inlets and adequate e= xit air you should not have a problem, just control the heat on climb out,if= you install ney nossils it may help but its the wrong band-aid at a high pr= ice. >>> =20 >>> It sounds to me that you will need to re-ring and hone the cylinders and= try the break-in again. Fall is here and cooler outside temps will aid in t= he break-in just remember do not go over 400 on the break-in. >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> steve alderman 25SA 360 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: N20087 >>> To: lml >>> Sent: Sun, Oct 7, 2012 10:34 am >>> Subject: [LML] Piston oil cooling jets >>>=20 >>> > Folks >>>=20 >>> This is addressed to the hard core engine experts on the forum. I would= love=20 >>> your feedback on this=20 >>>=20 >>> I am considering having my io360 crankcase modified so that I can instal= l piston=20 >>> cooling jets which are standard in 200hp engines. The reason being, I h= ave had=20 >>> to take aircraft out of service twice, once at 80 hrs and now at 160 due= to=20 >>> lousy break-in and high CHTs. I have done all the obvious stuff such as p= lenum,=20 >>> timing, plugs, flowed the fuel servo to the rich side, baffles etc.. I a= m=20 >>> running 9:1 eci cerminil cylinders and they will hit 430 on climb out. T= hey=20 >>> went to 450 twice in the initial break-in. They will run 370 in 75% crui= se and=20 >>> 340 lop >>>=20 >>> All this aside, the pistons at 80 hrs (both times) were coated in dark v= arnish=20 >>> under the crown and the top of the crowns were heavily carbonized from o= il=20 >>> blowback >>>=20 >>> I am just getting tired of it and don't want to pul the engine apart aga= in=20 >>> anytime soon after this downturn >>>=20 >>> So,,,I am wondering if anybody has any experience or data concerning the= cooling=20 >>> benefits of the piston oil nozzles. Ie is it 5 degrees or 20+ >>>=20 >>> Also, I am debating whether to split the crankcase myself or take the cl= osed=20 >>> case (jugs and every accessory removed) with con rods still attached to t= he=20 >>> local shop and have them split the case, do the machining and reassemble= . The=20 >>> shop is very very reputable but of course the cost will be higher if I g= et them=20 >>> to do the breakdown and reassembly=20 >>>=20 >>> As another cooling remediation measure I was thinking of opening up the c= owl=20 >>> inlets to 4 inches but a little reluctant due to the increased drag and l= imited=20 >>> benefit. I added an electric cowl flap by the way and achieved only a 2= degree=20 >>> CHT improvement in climb at 130 knots Go figure! >>>=20 >>> Again, any feedback on my plan here would appreciated=20 >>>=20 >>> Thanks in advance=20 >>>=20 >>> Tom=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>> For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.h= tml --Apple-Mail-CF375536-E660-4353-82E4-77A1753E5C34 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Tom, 
That s= ounds close on the Lower baffling gaps. I doubt the inlet size is the issue.= Where is your oil cooler?
Randy

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 8, 2012, at 12:44 PM, N20087 <n20087@yahoo.com> wrote:

Randy 

Thanks for the in= put.  I had already gotten real busy with the rtv.  I have not fix= ed the door to the doghouse but I think I will open the inlets a little. &nb= sp;I have dropped the idea of tearing into the crankcase.  I do need to= go over the lower baffles once more, the gaps are not consistent and I prob= ably have too much of the barrel exposed.  I understand lycoming sugges= t 2.125 inches on the head and 1.5 on the cylinder.  Is that about wher= e you are at?

Thanks

Tom
Sent from my iPad

On Oct 8, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Randylsnar= r <randylsnarr@yahoo.com>= wrote:

Tom,
Pay close attention to the air inlets and transition. You will want t= hat smooth. I have also seen large oil coolers mounted directly to the back o= f the baffling excessively dump the pressure on the top of the engine which y= ou need to get effective cooling. Anything you can do to seal up the top of t= he engine will reduce drag and cool better. You will want the baffling seale= d up tight tight tight. Put a shop light under the engine in a dark hangar a= nd seal EVERYTHING with high temp RTV so the only place for your cooling air= to go is through the cooling fins. Check the spacing on the baffling that w= raps around the cylinders at the bottom. Those can be too tight as well. I w= ould also radius them off instead of 90 degree bends where they are safety w= ired together too.  Also, the suggestion about closing the nose gear sl= ot with a door is a good one and I am planning to do this as well. There is l= ots of air going in there especially at high angles of attack creating press= ure in the lower cowl. This is bad and and it slows you down too.
Lastly,= I love my plennum. If they are done right, you will go fast and run cool. 3= 65 degrees are the norm for me in cruise.

Most of t= his has come from my research and looking carefully at what other guys have d= one . 
There may not be a magic bullet here. You may have sev= eral factors contributing to bad cooling. 
You should be able= to get cool without having to resort to expensive engine mods...
=
Look at set ups that are working and keep after it...
Good luck..

Randy Snarr
N694RS
235/320
Sent from my iPad

On Oct 7, 2012, at 4:15 PM, st= eve <n5276j@aol.com> wrote:
<= br>
Tom,
 
I have a 360 straight valve with 10:1 pistons,fuel injected with a slig= htly bigger oil cooler then normal. I increased my inlet air to four inches&= nbsp;and a stock RV baffling system sealed tight.My exit air is 3"x 17.=  If not careful (too lean) on hot days I can go over 400 on takeof= f/climb out on a hot day. However if I level off/ reduce power/rpm = ; I can stop the CHTS from going over 400, Once  cooled down (stabilize= d) from the takeoff I can resume full power/climb and manage the temps j= ust fine. I never run my engine over 400 chts.
 
 I recently ran a race in Pogosa Springs Co. it was 150 miles. I r= an wide open and 2650rpms, I controlled the chts with fuel and never went ov= er 390. The oil peaked at 210, I averaged 254 mph. I do not have ney nossils= nor a Plenum just a tight stock RV baffling system. I expect lowe= r CHTS once I build a nose gear door for the bottom cowl opening that has to= be upsetting the exit air from the strut opening. I also see a plenum in th= e future as I clean-up cooling drag that might allow me to close down i= nlet and exit air. But for now My cooling is fine
 
Lycon warns not to go over 400 for break-in. Doing so puts you at great= risk of glazing the cylinders and annealing the rings, which will caus= e blow-by, burning oil. Thus causing the cylinders to run hotter. This is wh= at I would suspect is your results.
 
Splitting the case and installing Ney nossils is not the answer in my o= pion. If your baffling system is correctly done with 4" inlets and adequate e= xit air you should not have a problem, just control the heat on climb out,if= you install ney nossils it may help but its the wrong band-aid at a hi= gh price.
 
It sounds to me that you will need to re-ring and hone the cylinders an= d try the break-in again. Fall is here and cooler outside temps will aid in t= he break-in just remember do not go over 400 on the break-in.
 
 
 
steve alderman   25SA   360



 
-= ----Original Message-----
From: N20087 <n20087@yahoo.com>= ;
To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Oct 7, 2012 10:34 am
Subject: [LML] Piston oil cooling jets

> Fo=
lks

This is addressed to the hard core engine experts on the forum.  I would lov=
e=20
your feedback on this=20

I am considering having my io360 crankcase modified so that I can install pi=
ston=20
cooling jets which are standard in 200hp engines.  The reason being, I have h=
ad=20
to take aircraft out of service twice, once at 80 hrs and now at 160 due to=20=

lousy break-in and high CHTs. I have done all the obvious stuff such as plen=
um,=20
timing, plugs, flowed the fuel servo to the rich side, baffles etc.. I am=20=

running 9:1 eci cerminil cylinders and they will hit 430 on climb out.  They=
=20
went to 450 twice in the initial break-in. They will run 370 in 75% cruise a=
nd=20
340 lop

All this aside, the pistons at 80 hrs (both times) were coated in dark varni=
sh=20
under the crown and the top of the crowns were heavily carbonized from oil=20=

blowback

I am just getting tired of it and don't want to pul the engine apart again=20=

anytime soon after this downturn

So,,,I am wondering if anybody has any experience or data concerning the coo=
ling=20
benefits of the piston oil nozzles.  Ie is it 5 degrees or 20+

Also, I am debating whether to split the crankcase myself or take the closed=
=20
case (jugs and every accessory removed) with con rods still attached to the=20=

local shop and have them split the case, do the machining and reassemble.  T=
he=20
shop is very very reputable but of course the cost will be higher if I get t=
hem=20
to do the breakdown and reassembly=20

As another cooling remediation measure I was thinking of opening up the cowl=
=20
inlets to 4 inches but a little reluctant due to the increased drag and limi=
ted=20
benefit.  I added an electric cowl flap by the way and achieved only a 2 deg=
ree=20
CHT improvement in climb at 130 knots Go figure!

Again, any feedback on my plan here would appreciated=20

Thanks in advance=20

Tom=20



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