X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 14:44:19 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm26-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com ([98.139.213.74] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c2) with ESMTPS id 5801295 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 08 Oct 2012 14:29:23 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.213.74; envelope-from=n20087@yahoo.com Received: from [98.139.212.146] by nm26.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2012 18:28:45 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.205] by tm3.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2012 18:28:45 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1014.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2012 18:28:45 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 606828.14862.bm@omp1014.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 81531 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2012 18:28:45 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=DKIM-Signature:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Subject:References:From:Content-Type:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Date:To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version; b=LRoSZ1X8PKrlRJ7+CMhNIQ8tuKO26WdJOdQIxxPQ6HI+4vR3SI8ctZ9rDbXOYOpD4g/4V6IwuhFoj0yu+1R2AiLn1gh1aZFB17WVAEiV9Mx5npiU2IH9qQe58BmOqcfby7r1gGkaFL85ydxXCmW8ovn820MtsMQm8gJgPqWSFWI= ; X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: qg6_O3sVM1kSpxtLx8Y5T5X0jhOiqynd4WQd0rPlZVXkCQL qfjdXfJvd7HiDkK5nL.yq7wmavrRksWgw8MmhS8ybap4LX3PznuNztTG1S9l dURiiCqjAmYx9K6jwM3duxYF_x8gVd_9L0RhcwAuACiO1.NP5k9eHYCXeHId cLLQ09JJBlr8iXuy2cKM8vkDQa9iozSuhAv72bl2glS9pHQ6_C7jN3jH0Ewk jNSLtMSG7OC.yoZdPll0nYIy4V5iifPDMRRu6n1a6G.H.IRK_0zyiCSxYFar 2aTwg_RFdaRPapbkDn5kGoLR8scre4oSfg0AkTndcEGtJW.Ln2yToh8kuKD_ GEi.5djpBgiBpXc.l31xDBAIL8h5Fp2ZfpTp1Zt5PTJyNl0dICdo1QaW1Jx3 rpPEaTEKCcyNprJWoUI2l.jVqQ7NB4dLuetCrwwTEUX3NV_yW8KECivF2Ir1 VlXaIcrJJ2KqrGK7lHE5wVAeYRR_IMl2p4W9.w0Ykn.UsNXSX3G7Sx4FQ X-Yahoo-SMTP: NQQt3c2swBAKSrExoA1eZuT7_w-- Received: from [10.14.88.213] (n20087@198.228.205.18 with xymcookie) by smtp105-mob.biz.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 08 Oct 2012 11:28:45 -0700 PDT Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Piston oil cooling jets References: From: N20087 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-01F19840-77EC-416B-A178-FC7E044123A3 X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B176) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Message-Id: X-Original-Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 14:28:41 -0400 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) --Apple-Mail-01F19840-77EC-416B-A178-FC7E044123A3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Randy=20 Thanks for the input. I had already gotten real busy with the rtv. I have n= ot fixed the door to the doghouse but I think I will open the inlets a littl= e. I have dropped the idea of tearing into the crankcase. I do need to go o= ver the lower baffles once more, the gaps are not consistent and I probably h= ave too much of the barrel exposed. I understand lycoming suggest 2.125 inc= hes on the head and 1.5 on the cylinder. Is that about where you are at? Thanks Tom Sent from my iPad On Oct 8, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Randylsnarr wrote: > Tom, > Pay close attention to the air inlets and transition. You will want that s= mooth. I have also seen large oil coolers mounted directly to the back of th= e baffling excessively dump the pressure on the top of the engine which you n= eed to get effective cooling. Anything you can do to seal up the top of the e= ngine will reduce drag and cool better. You will want the baffling sealed up= tight tight tight. Put a shop light under the engine in a dark hangar and s= eal EVERYTHING with high temp RTV so the only place for your cooling air to g= o is through the cooling fins. Check the spacing on the baffling that wraps a= round the cylinders at the bottom. Those can be too tight as well. I would a= lso radius them off instead of 90 degree bends where they are safety wired t= ogether too. Also, the suggestion about closing the nose gear slot with a d= oor is a good one and I am planning to do this as well. There is lots of air= going in there especially at high angles of attack creating pressure in the= lower cowl. This is bad and and it slows you down too. > Lastly, I love my plennum. If they are done right, you will go fast and ru= n cool. 365 degrees are the norm for me in cruise. >=20 > Most of this has come from my research and looking carefully at what other= guys have done .=20 > There may not be a magic bullet here. You may have several factors contrib= uting to bad cooling.=20 > You should be able to get cool without having to resort to expensive engin= e mods... >=20 > Look at set ups that are working and keep after it... > Good luck.. >=20 > Randy Snarr > N694RS > 235/320 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Oct 7, 2012, at 4:15 PM, steve wrote: >=20 >> Tom, >> =20 >> I have a 360 straight valve with 10:1 pistons,fuel injected with a slight= ly bigger oil cooler then normal. I increased my inlet air to four inches an= d a stock RV baffling system sealed tight.My exit air is 3"x 17. If not care= ful (too lean) on hot days I can go over 400 on takeoff/climb out on a hot d= ay. However if I level off/ reduce power/rpm I can stop the CHTS from going= over 400, Once cooled down (stabilized) from the takeoff I can resume full= power/climb and manage the temps just fine. I never run my engine over 400 c= hts. >> =20 >> I recently ran a race in Pogosa Springs Co. it was 150 miles. I ran wide= open and 2650rpms, I controlled the chts with fuel and never went over 390.= The oil peaked at 210, I averaged 254 mph. I do not have ney nossils nor a P= lenum just a tight stock RV baffling system. I expect lower CHTS once I buil= d a nose gear door for the bottom cowl opening that has to be upsetting the e= xit air from the strut opening. I also see a plenum in the future as I clean= -up cooling drag that might allow me to close down inlet and exit air. But f= or now My cooling is fine >> =20 >> Lycon warns not to go over 400 for break-in. Doing so puts you at great r= isk of glazing the cylinders and annealing the rings, which will cause blow-= by, burning oil. Thus causing the cylinders to run hotter. This is what I wo= uld suspect is your results. >> =20 >> Splitting the case and installing Ney nossils is not the answer in my opi= on. If your baffling system is correctly done with 4" inlets and adequate ex= it air you should not have a problem, just control the heat on climb out,if y= ou install ney nossils it may help but its the wrong band-aid at a high pric= e. >> =20 >> It sounds to me that you will need to re-ring and hone the cylinders and t= ry the break-in again. Fall is here and cooler outside temps will aid in the= break-in just remember do not go over 400 on the break-in. >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> steve alderman 25SA 360 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> =20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: N20087 >> To: lml >> Sent: Sun, Oct 7, 2012 10:34 am >> Subject: [LML] Piston oil cooling jets >>=20 >> > Folks >>=20 >> This is addressed to the hard core engine experts on the forum. I would l= ove=20 >> your feedback on this=20 >>=20 >> I am considering having my io360 crankcase modified so that I can install= piston=20 >> cooling jets which are standard in 200hp engines. The reason being, I ha= ve had=20 >> to take aircraft out of service twice, once at 80 hrs and now at 160 due t= o=20 >> lousy break-in and high CHTs. I have done all the obvious stuff such as p= lenum,=20 >> timing, plugs, flowed the fuel servo to the rich side, baffles etc.. I am= =20 >> running 9:1 eci cerminil cylinders and they will hit 430 on climb out. T= hey=20 >> went to 450 twice in the initial break-in. They will run 370 in 75% cruis= e and=20 >> 340 lop >>=20 >> All this aside, the pistons at 80 hrs (both times) were coated in dark va= rnish=20 >> under the crown and the top of the crowns were heavily carbonized from oi= l=20 >> blowback >>=20 >> I am just getting tired of it and don't want to pul the engine apart agai= n=20 >> anytime soon after this downturn >>=20 >> So,,,I am wondering if anybody has any experience or data concerning the c= ooling=20 >> benefits of the piston oil nozzles. Ie is it 5 degrees or 20+ >>=20 >> Also, I am debating whether to split the crankcase myself or take the clo= sed=20 >> case (jugs and every accessory removed) with con rods still attached to t= he=20 >> local shop and have them split the case, do the machining and reassemble.= The=20 >> shop is very very reputable but of course the cost will be higher if I ge= t them=20 >> to do the breakdown and reassembly=20 >>=20 >> As another cooling remediation measure I was thinking of opening up the c= owl=20 >> inlets to 4 inches but a little reluctant due to the increased drag and l= imited=20 >> benefit. I added an electric cowl flap by the way and achieved only a 2 d= egree=20 >> CHT improvement in climb at 130 knots Go figure! >>=20 >> Again, any feedback on my plan here would appreciated=20 >>=20 >> Thanks in advance=20 >>=20 >> Tom=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.ht= ml --Apple-Mail-01F19840-77EC-416B-A178-FC7E044123A3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Randy 

=
Thanks for the input.  I had already gotten real busy with t= he rtv.  I have not fixed the door to the doghouse but I think I will o= pen the inlets a little.  I have dropped the idea of tearing into the c= rankcase.  I do need to go over the lower baffles once more, the gaps a= re not consistent and I probably have too much of the barrel exposed.  = I understand lycoming suggest 2.125 inches on the head and 1.5 on the cylind= er.  Is that about where you are at?

Thanks

Tom

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 8, 2= 012, at 1:44 PM, Randylsnarr <ra= ndylsnarr@yahoo.com> wrote:

Tom,
Pay close attention to the air inlets and tr= ansition. You will want that smooth. I have also seen large oil coolers moun= ted directly to the back of the baffling excessively dump the pressure on th= e top of the engine which you need to get effective cooling. Anything you ca= n do to seal up the top of the engine will reduce drag and cool better. You w= ill want the baffling sealed up tight tight tight. Put a shop light under th= e engine in a dark hangar and seal EVERYTHING with high temp RTV so the only= place for your cooling air to go is through the cooling fins. Check the spa= cing on the baffling that wraps around the cylinders at the bottom. Those ca= n be too tight as well. I would also radius them off instead of 90 degree be= nds where they are safety wired together too.  Also, the suggestion abo= ut closing the nose gear slot with a door is a good one and I am planning to= do this as well. There is lots of air going in there especially at high ang= les of attack creating pressure in the lower cowl. This is bad and and it sl= ows you down too.
Lastly, I love my plennum. If they are done right, you w= ill go fast and run cool. 365 degrees are the norm for me in cruise.

Most of this has come from my research and looking careful= ly at what other guys have done . 
There may not be a magic b= ullet here. You may have several factors contributing to bad cooling. <= /div>
You should be able to get cool without having to resort to expensi= ve engine mods...

Look at set ups that are working a= nd keep after it...
Good luck..

Randy Sna= rr
N694RS
235/320
Sent from my iPad

On O= ct 7, 2012, at 4:15 PM, steve <n5276j@a= ol.com> wrote:

Tom,
 
I have a 360 straight valve with 10:1 pistons,fuel injected with a slig= htly bigger oil cooler then normal. I increased my inlet air to four inches&= nbsp;and a stock RV baffling system sealed tight.My exit air is 3"x 17.=  If not careful (too lean) on hot days I can go over 400 on takeof= f/climb out on a hot day. However if I level off/ reduce power/rpm = ; I can stop the CHTS from going over 400, Once  cooled down (stabilize= d) from the takeoff I can resume full power/climb and manage the temps j= ust fine. I never run my engine over 400 chts.
 
 I recently ran a race in Pogosa Springs Co. it was 150 miles. I r= an wide open and 2650rpms, I controlled the chts with fuel and never went ov= er 390. The oil peaked at 210, I averaged 254 mph. I do not have ney nossils= nor a Plenum just a tight stock RV baffling system. I expect lowe= r CHTS once I build a nose gear door for the bottom cowl opening that has to= be upsetting the exit air from the strut opening. I also see a plenum in th= e future as I clean-up cooling drag that might allow me to close down i= nlet and exit air. But for now My cooling is fine
 
Lycon warns not to go over 400 for break-in. Doing so puts you at great= risk of glazing the cylinders and annealing the rings, which will caus= e blow-by, burning oil. Thus causing the cylinders to run hotter. This is wh= at I would suspect is your results.
 
Splitting the case and installing Ney nossils is not the answer in my o= pion. If your baffling system is correctly done with 4" inlets and adequate e= xit air you should not have a problem, just control the heat on climb out,if= you install ney nossils it may help but its the wrong band-aid at a hi= gh price.
 
It sounds to me that you will need to re-ring and hone the cylinders an= d try the break-in again. Fall is here and cooler outside temps will aid in t= he break-in just remember do not go over 400 on the break-in.
 
 
 
steve alderman   25SA   360



 
-= ----Original Message-----
From: N20087 <n20087@yahoo.com>= ;
To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Oct 7, 2012 10:34 am
Subject: [LML] Piston oil cooling jets

> Fo=
lks

This is addressed to the hard core engine experts on the forum.  I would lov=
e=20
your feedback on this=20

I am considering having my io360 crankcase modified so that I can install pi=
ston=20
cooling jets which are standard in 200hp engines.  The reason being, I have h=
ad=20
to take aircraft out of service twice, once at 80 hrs and now at 160 due to=20=

lousy break-in and high CHTs. I have done all the obvious stuff such as plen=
um,=20
timing, plugs, flowed the fuel servo to the rich side, baffles etc.. I am=20=

running 9:1 eci cerminil cylinders and they will hit 430 on climb out.  They=
=20
went to 450 twice in the initial break-in. They will run 370 in 75% cruise a=
nd=20
340 lop

All this aside, the pistons at 80 hrs (both times) were coated in dark varni=
sh=20
under the crown and the top of the crowns were heavily carbonized from oil=20=

blowback

I am just getting tired of it and don't want to pul the engine apart again=20=

anytime soon after this downturn

So,,,I am wondering if anybody has any experience or data concerning the coo=
ling=20
benefits of the piston oil nozzles.  Ie is it 5 degrees or 20+

Also, I am debating whether to split the crankcase myself or take the closed=
=20
case (jugs and every accessory removed) with con rods still attached to the=20=

local shop and have them split the case, do the machining and reassemble.  T=
he=20
shop is very very reputable but of course the cost will be higher if I get t=
hem=20
to do the breakdown and reassembly=20

As another cooling remediation measure I was thinking of opening up the cowl=
=20
inlets to 4 inches but a little reluctant due to the increased drag and limi=
ted=20
benefit.  I added an electric cowl flap by the way and achieved only a 2 deg=
ree=20
CHT improvement in climb at 130 knots Go figure!

Again, any feedback on my plan here would appreciated=20

Thanks in advance=20

Tom=20



--
For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/Lis=
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= --Apple-Mail-01F19840-77EC-416B-A178-FC7E044123A3--