X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2012 08:15:35 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm7-vm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.90.250] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with SMTP id 5746729 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 06 Sep 2012 02:01:49 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.90.250; envelope-from=chris_zavatson@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.90.54] by nm7.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Sep 2012 06:01:14 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.248] by tm7.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Sep 2012 06:01:14 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1040.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Sep 2012 06:01:14 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 647778.97886.bm@omp1040.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 93814 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Sep 2012 06:01:14 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; 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Wed, 05 Sep 2012 23:01:14 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.121.416 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1346911274.93491.YahooMailNeo@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 23:01:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Zavatson Reply-To: Chris Zavatson Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Thermal influence on Hydraulic Pressure X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1458340343-1873497416-1346911274=:93491" --1458340343-1873497416-1346911274=:93491 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wolfgang,=0AThe =E2=80=98failure to retract=E2=80=99 issue, to which you re= fer, sounds like a pump configuration issue.=C2=A0 =0AFor example, the curr= ent pump sold by Lancair for the 320/360/Legacy contains spool return sprin= gs.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0This configuration has the potential to lock up due t= o thermal heating.=C2=A0 This configuration is simply not compatible with t= he design of the Lancair two-seat hydraulic systems.=C2=A0 =0ALock-up video= :http://www.n91cz.com/Hydraulics/NewPumpLockUp_0001.wmv=0AWith personnel tu= rn-over at both companies, neither side knows why the return springs were a= dded.=C2=A0 However, both Parker and Lancair agree that a lock up on the gr= ound is possible with the springs installed.=C2=A0 This lock-up has been ex= perienced by some, including the factory Legacy.=C2=A0 It just has not been= reported enough to drive an engineering change at Lancair.=C2=A0 =0AParker= has graciously supplied parts to revert currently sold =E2=80=9CCZZ=E2=80= =9D pumps back to the original 320/360 configuration with respect to spool = operation.=C2=A0 I have been forwarding these parts free of charge to anyon= e who needs them. =0ASee conversion instructions here: http://www.n91cz.com= /Hydraulics/Pump-Unlock.pdf=0AI applaud your ingenuity in devising your cir= cuit.=C2=A0 Unfortunately your energy seems to be a little misplaced.=C2=A0= =C2=A0 I would prefer to investigate and fix the root cause of any out of t= he ordinary behavior-especially on an airplane!=C2=A0=C2=A0 If my engine wa= s burning a quart of oil per hour, the fix=C2=A0would not to design a gadge= t that would pump oil from an onboard supply into the sump and replenish th= e lost oil.=C2=A0 The solution, albeit painful in the short term,=C2=A0woul= d be=C2=A0to open up the engine, find and fix the problem and then fly like= other engines.=0AI understand that removing a pump, in particular those mo= unted behind the baggage bulkhead is no fun.=C2=A0 Poor access is a real de= terrent for any maintenance activity.=C2=A0 That is simply human nature.=C2= =A0 In the grand scheme of things, it is a small price to pay.=C2=A0 =0AMy = offer still stands to examine your (Lorn=E2=80=99s) pump or any other that = is able to lock-up both circuits.=C2=A0 I have not yet come across one that= did not have an obvious cause-like the springs mentioned above, so any suc= h reported behavior of great interest to me and is worth investigating.=0A= =C2=A0=0AChris Zavatson=0AN91CZ=0A360std=0Awww.N91CZ.net=0A=0A=0AFrom: Wolf= gang =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Wednesday, S= eptember 5, 2012 9:28 AM=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Thermal influence on Hydrauli= c Pressure=0A=0ALet's not forget this thermal influence causing non-functio= n can also happen in reverse. It has been reported that a thermal a soak on= the ground after a cold night can and has caused a failure to retract afte= r take off.=0A=C2=A0=0AA while back I offered a solution of bumping the pum= p automatically whenever both pressure switches, HI and LO, are open due to= high pressure. This would=C2=A0put the system back in normal operation mod= e without the need for pilot intervention=0A=C2=A0=0AWolfgang=0A=C2=A0=0A--= --- Original Message ----- =0A>From: Chris Zavatson =0A>To: lml@lancaironli= ne.net =0A>Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 7:53 PM=0A>Subject: Re: [LML] = Re: Thermal influence on Hydraulic Pressure=0A>=0A>=0A>Fred,=0A>I wish we h= ad an easy way of bleeding just a wee bit of pressure without momentarily d= umping the gear in cruise.=0A>The 320/360 pumps use a non-adjustable therma= l relief valve rated at 2,500 psi.=C2=A0 The actual cracking pressure is 2,= 500 to 2,900 psi.=C2=A0 This is the lowest=C2=A0set-point Parker has availa= ble.=C2=A0 2,900 psi is a lot of pressure for a system that nominally opera= tes at 1,200 psi.=C2=A0 Hopefully the design margin for the cylinders etc.= =C2=A0was chosen=C2=A0large enough.=0A>The first time I saw a 2,000+ excurs= ion was on the test bench.=C2=A0 I was leak checking a cylinder.=C2=A0 The = test stand was near the hangar door.=C2=A0 The sun swung=C2=A0around and hi= t the pressurized clyinder.=C2=A0 I dont' know what the max pressure was si= nce that gauge only went to 2,000 psi.=0A>Chris=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Chris Zavatson= =0A>N91CZ=0A>360std=0A>http://www.n91cz.net/=0A>=0A>=0A>From: Frederick Mor= eno =0A>To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A>Sent: Mo= nday, September 3, 2012 11:54 AM=0A>Subject: [LML] Re: Thermal influence on= Hydraulic Pressure=0A>=0A>I have an MPV-50=C2=A0 engine monitor that inclu= des continuous reading of the hydraulic system pressure on my Lancair IV/= =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have seen the same thing, particularly on a flight tha= t started on a cool morning departure from my home drome and took us to the= desert for a 110+F day.=C2=A0 On descent, pressure rose from its customary= 1250 to 1500 psi at which point Bitching Betty started to complain so I bu= mped my speed brakes which are hydraulic, and lowered=C2=A0pressure back do= wn to my customary range.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Same thing sometimes happens in rever= se, a hot soak on the ground, then a climb to 10-11,000 feet for a cool soa= k, and at some point the=C2=A0hydraulic pump kicks on to restore pressure t= o the desired level.=C2=A0 My TR-182 used to the the same thing routinely w= hen departing Phoenix in the summertime.=0A>=0A>It is a real effect, and ma= kes one wonder about very high pressure events arising from FL 270 (say) co= ld soak terminating in Phoenix on a July afternoon.=C2=A0 Hmmmm....=0A>=0A>= Fred=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>-------Original Message-------=0A>=0A>=0A>-took= this photo after=C2=A0a descent from 16.5k to 1,500 ft.=0A>OAT=C2=A0went f= rom 42 to 94 degrees.=0A>High Pressure gauge is pegged at 2,000+ psi=0A>-Di= dn't get a photo, but the opposite happened on the ramp in Spokane.=C2=A0Af= ter sitting for an hour, the low pressure gauge was pegged at 1,200 psi+.= =C2=A0 Spokane might not be the warmest spot in the country, but at 85 deg = F, it was 55 degrees warmer than the cold soak on the previous leg.=0A>Temp= erature changes have a big impact on system pressure.=C2=A0=0A>=0A>Chris Za= vatson=0A>N91CZ=0A>360std=0A>http://www.n91cz.net/=0A> --1458340343-1873497416-1346911274=:93491 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="1458340343-1058208421-1346911274=:93491" --1458340343-1058208421-1346911274=:93491 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wolfgang,
= The =E2=80=98failure to retract=E2=80=99 issue, to which you refer, sounds = like a pump configuration issue. 
For example, the current pump sold by La= ncair for the 320/360/Legacy contains spool return springs.   &nb= sp;This configuration has the potential to lock up due to thermal he= ating.  This configuration is= simply not compatible with the design of the Lancair two-seat hydraulic sy= stems.  <= /div>
Lock-u= p video:http://www.n91cz.com/Hydraulics/NewPumpLockUp_0001.wmv
With personnel turn-over at both compani= es, neither side knows why the return springs were added.  However, both Parker and Lancair agree that a= lock up on the ground is possible with the springs installed.  This lock-up has been experienced by s= ome, including the factory Legacy.  = It just has not been reported enough to drive an engineering change = at Lancair. 
= Parker has graciously supplied parts to revert currently sold =E2=80=9CCZZ= =E2=80=9D pumps back to the original 320/360 configuration with respect to = spool operation.  I have been= forwarding these parts free of charge to anyone who needs them.
See conversion instructions here: http://www.n91cz.com/Hydraulics/Pump-Unlock.pdf
I applaud your ingenuity in devising you= r circuit.  Unfortunately you= r energy seems to be a little misplaced.&= nbsp;  I would prefer to investigate and fix the root cause of = any out of the ordinary behavior-especially on an airplane!   If my engine was burning a quart of o= il per hour, the fix would not to design a gadget that would pump oil = from an onboard supply into the sump and replenish the lost oil.  The solution, albeit painful in the sh= ort term, would be to open up the engine, find and fix the proble= m and then fly like other engines.
I understand that removing a pump, in pa= rticular those mounted behind the baggage bulkhead is no fun.  Poor access is a real deterrent for any m= aintenance activity.  That is= simply human nature.  In the= grand scheme of things, it is a small price to pay. 
My offer still stands to examine your (L= orn=E2=80=99s) pump or any other that is able to lock-up both circuits.  I have not yet com= e across one that did not have an obvious cause-like the springs mentioned = above, so any such reported behavior of great interest to me and is worth i= nvestigating.
 
Chris = Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
= www.N91CZ.net


From:= Wolfgang <Wolfgang@MiCom.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 9:28 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Thermal in= fluence on Hydraulic Pressure
Let's not forget this thermal influence ca= using non-function can also happen in reverse. It has been reported that a = thermal a soak on the ground after a cold night can and has caused a failur= e to retract after take off.
 
A while back I offered a solution of bumpi= ng the pump automatically whenever both pressure switches, HI and LO, are o= pen due to high pressure. This would put the system back in normal ope= ration mode without the need for pilot intervention
 
Wolfgang
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 7:= 53 PM
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Thermal influ= ence on Hydraulic Pressure

Fred,
I wish we had an easy way of bleeding just a wee bit of pressure without momentarily dumping the= gear in cruise.
= The 320/360 pumps use a non-adjustable thermal relief valve rated at 2,500 = psi.  The actual cracking pressure is 2,500 to 2,900 psi.  This i= s the lowest set-point Parker has available.  2,900 psi is a lot = of pressure for a system that nominally operates at 1,200 psi.  Hopefu= lly the design margin for the cylinders etc. was chosen large eno= ugh.
= The first time I saw a 2,000+ excursion was on the test bench.  I was = leak checking a cylinder.  The test stand was near the hangar door.&nb= sp; The sun swung around and hit the pressurized clyinder.  I don= t' know what the max pressure was since that gauge only went to 2,000 psi.<= /SPAN>
= Chris
=  
= Chris Zavatson
= N91CZ
= 360std
= http://www.n91cz.net/

From: Frederick Moreno &l= t;frederickmoreno@bigpond.com>
T= o: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Thermal influence on Hydra= ulic Pressure
<= IMG id=3Dyiv2069779943IncrediPictureImgSrc border=3D0 src=3D"cid:1.60595127= 1@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com" width=3D50 height=3D50>
I have an MPV-50  engine monitor that includes continuous reading= of the hydraulic system pressure on my Lancair IV/    I hav= e seen the same thing, particularly on a flight that started on a cool morn= ing departure from my home drome and took us to the desert for a 110+F day.=   On descent, pressure rose from its customary 1250 to 1500 psi at whi= ch point Bitching Betty started to complain so I bumped my speed brakes whi= ch are hydraulic, and lowered pressure back down to my customary range= .   Same thing sometimes happens in reverse, a hot soak on the gr= ound, then a climb to 10-11,000 feet for a cool soak, and at some point the=  hydraulic pump kicks on to restore pressure to the desired level.&nbs= p; My TR-182 used to the the same thing routinely when departing Phoenix in= the summertime.
 
It is a real effect, and makes one wonder about very high pressure eve= nts arising from FL 270 (say) cold soak terminating in Phoenix on a July af= ternoon.  Hmmmm....
 
Fred
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
 
-took this photo after a descent from 16.5k to 1,500 ft.
OAT went from 42 to 94 degrees.
High Pressure gauge is pegged at 2,000+ psi
-Didn't get a photo, but the opposite happened on the ramp in Spokane.=  After sitting for an hour, the low pressure gauge was pegged at 1,200= psi+.  Spokane might not be the warmest spot in the country, but at 8= 5 deg F, it was 55 degrees warmer than the cold soak on the previous leg.
Temperature changes have a big impact on system pressure. 
 
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
http://www.n91cz.net/
 
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