X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 00:04:49 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm20-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.174] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.5) with SMTP id 5531642 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 10 May 2012 14:40:21 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.174; envelope-from=bu131@swbell.net Received: from [98.139.44.104] by nm20.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 May 2012 18:39:46 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.93] by tm9.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 May 2012 18:39:46 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1030.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 May 2012 18:39:46 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 102385.80048.bm@omp1030.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 12669 invoked by uid 60001); 10 May 2012 18:39:46 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=swbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Iv/Ixsr0n0dbY0zt9dzXSHfLONPGwqju/7SfQkDEdh5qOCpDfjcXAzMdTaqVd3EOdAfwI4oX7CtkeYrv2gfKHVIU0GAgpPqtuJq70J5zkBfv+EEkz1A7jOjwdU2oZDsHJVVqvcfag26BsV7EJJAFLDxwWkD5JMrr0Dm1bWqgg0M=; X-YMail-OSG: lYAQ6W8VM1n15CqM3vu6B7nqlyJ3lwtAP6.Yywlf7YrB5qh fnJQwgpusr87MMVommYS2b7pnxTAdlWEWaMNxI5Z60gFKGUuvs.l1b6LABt1 2vCHxjxtL1tY1aALza0QdBkkIGWrhogZuW6tDpC.AgzNyrMIvpfXodbO9CMc VOUrJoBzi5QCe1sFjXeIkMdURngEQAF.fAIXA5LpyBHd8ZDXf.LgzcTvfE_q ltBl0fJrii9KGIV3JJ0HRc0wB807f2Y3sBVHQ8BEuquBJjhqmQchraHheKT8 GI4kZv8oMhquoxqT.JKuhzkpCqtyFtNcSz2Ka7pX9cya4C36uepkAJOVdR_A vtIccrOXuJdlApsd6Iv5kpq3lx0IhP.aD.hzoJMjwwtygnnvZ1uAvZsCsLAK p01nZDWtppMhCFWkNgj8KiVQIt8U4lI06HGyRCu4qiWHvcy6rx4_bXlK7Kuf O79y7JFqOLRc6EECANSjUmoekMQVPzRsPYtMxuBJdbvOsRZ7g.f.GeF8mWDY Hj7PTxOCQQtIdhXIK4bX6CS5T4FbVKA-- Received: from [70.254.83.98] by web80008.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 10 May 2012 11:39:41 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.117.340979 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1336675181.31334.YahooMailNeo@web80008.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 11:39:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Dr Andres Katz Reply-To: Dr Andres Katz Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="546723594-1862340753-1336675181=:31334" --546723594-1862340753-1336675181=:31334 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable sarcasm is the last refuge of the imaginatively bankrupt (C.C. =C2=A0" city= =C2=A0of hopes")=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: John= Hafen =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Thursday,= May 10, 2012 7:18 AM=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P s= till beats EA50=0A =0A=0ADr. Katz:=0A=C2=A0=0AI=E2=80=99m glad your Evo is = everything you thought it should be.=C2=A0 As it should be for several time= s the price of an IVP.=0A=C2=A0=0AHave you taken a ride in an Avanti?=C2=A0= I think you=E2=80=99d like it.=0A=C2=A0=0ACheers,=0A=C2=A0=0AJohn Hafen=0A= =C2=A0=0AFrom:Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf= Of Dr Andres Katz=0ASent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 10:39 AM=0ATo: lml@lanca= ironline.net=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beat= s EA50=0A=C2=A0=0Ainteresting comments John:=0A=C2=A0=0Alet me point out a = few differences:=0AI have seen many IV-P's in my career, I pay attention to= all of them=0AI even watched a guy in the dallas area hire a bunch of roof= ers build 4 IV-P's in succesion until the FAA got him out of the business.= =0AEvery one is a bit different and depending in who built it the quality c= hanges.=0A=C2=A0=0AI spent 6 years with a mechanical engineer with expertis= e on aircraft adhesives as my main builder assist with whom I spent the ent= ire 6 years doing my IV.=0A=C2=A0=0AIn contrast all Evo's are factory match= ed, built with factory assistance, no chance of leaving the plastic protect= ive layer in prior to hysol (like one unfortunate mexican builder who did n= ot know about that layer and the airplane had to be trashed)=0Aall evos fly= ing have been built (with one or 2 exceptions) with major factory supervisi= on=0Apower plant is usually a well know PW with years of experience and no = shock cooling or cylinder unexpected failures (or crankshaft separation) or= worries about who used LOP or ROP etc etc etc.=0Athe airplane is not deman= ding in landing (I land mine at 70 kts with no trouble) so you wont see the= deadly stall in turn to downwind scenarios.=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0AI wont hesita= te to purchase an used Evo any time=0AI will certainly hesitate a lot about= buying an used IV-P for the above reason=0Abut I have been wrong in my lif= e so many times that I would not dare put a cent in aviation. Flying is fun= to me so far=0A=C2=A0=0Aand I have not been paid by the factory to say all= this.=0A=C2=A0=0Aak=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFr= om:John Barrett =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0ASent= : Tuesday, May 8, 2012 11:30 AM=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV= -P? IV-P still beats EA50=0A=C2=A0=0AAre we getting into a IVP vs Evolution= war here?=C2=A0 Not much future in that, but I do recall when I started bu= ilding my IVP two lifetimes ago, that one of the major incentives was inves= tment resale value.=C2=A0 I was going to be adding to my net worth by build= ing this thing.=C2=A0 =0A=C2=A0=0ANow it=E2=80=99s worth a lot less than I = have in it.=C2=A0 =0A=C2=A0=0ANo reason to expect time and circumstances to= be so unkind to Evo owners but it is true that things rarely turn out just= the way we think they will when we get down the road. =C2=A0=C2=A0=0A=C2= =A0=0ARegards,=0AJohn Barrett=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0AFrom:Lancair Mai= ling List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of bu131@swbell.net=0ASe= nt: Monday, May 07, 2012 9:46 AM=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net=0ASubject: [LM= L] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50=0A=C2=A0=0AYou are s= o kind with your comments=0AThe original question was using an early eclips= e vintage, certainly we are not talking about gulfstreams here=0AKeep in mi= nd I have no idea of the cost of a vintage eclipse but I can assure you tha= t the resale value of an evo will beat the hell of whatever investment you = put on the initial choice=0AAnd I hope you have a good day too=0ASent via B= lackBerry by AT&T=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom: "John Ha= fen" =0ASender: "Lancair Mailing List" =0ADate: Mon, 07 May 2012 07:51:20 -0400=0ATo: =0AReplyTo: "Lancair Mailing List" =0ASubject:= [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50=0A=C2=A0=0AWell,= perhaps because the Evo costs 3X what my IVP costs.=0A=C2=A0=0AWhy don=E2= =80=99t you try a Citation, or a Gulfstream?=0A=C2=A0=0AJohn Hafen=0AIVP 41= 3AJ 400 Hours=0A=C2=A0=0AFrom:Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironlin= e.net] On Behalf Of Dr Andres Katz=0ASent: Friday, May 04, 2012 9:13 AM=0AT= o: lml@lancaironline.net=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-= P still beats EA50=0A=C2=A0=0Awhy dont you try an evo=0Ai get 300+ to 310 a= t 28k usually run 28 gph and goes 1500 miles=0Acheck flightaware for mine r= edmond dallas non stop with 15 kts tailwind=0Alanded with 40 gallons=C2=A0= =0Athe final a/c after the guys at lancair diddled with it and placed an ad= ditional air cooler in front of the cowling works perfectly i even have a f= resh air modulator now=0Abeats the hell of the eclipse and the new garmin a= /p works as magic instead of the=C2=A0=0A*%#* sorcerer=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A______= __________________________=0A=0AFrom:"cwfmd@yahoo.com" =0A= To: lml@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Friday, May 4, 2012 9:25 AM=0ASubject: [= LML] Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50=0A=C2=A0=0AI tried fly= ing without AC in the summer in Houston. You can dump the door seal and get= some relief above say 6000 feet, but I wouldn't do it with passengers, ear= s etc. I also tried hot wx army vests with cooling. Weird feeling too cold = over your chest and your head's too hot.... The desert cooler worked pretty= good but iced up the windows... cool but IMC=0A=C2=A0After about 3 years o= f this, we installed AC.=0A=C2=A0We just made a deal on an early "vintage" = Eclipse. We are using it in an Aero Engineering course at Rice U. RVSM pend= ing and Engine AD restrict us to FL280 and I get 203 KEAS at 530 pph ~80gph= =0AIV-P 205 KIAS at FL240 and 75% 25 gph, So far Eclipse Air Conditioning i= s not very good- same problem as Lancair with heat loading of cabin with bl= eed air.=0A=C2=A0We're considering a West coast trip next week from Houston= via Colorado/Wyoming to COE, Idaho, then SEA, RDM Oregon, SJC/MRY CA, and = back to TX. If you are headed along such a route and want to share a VLJ, c= ollect some Performance data, and stick time, for some gas money, give me a= holler.=0ABill Miller, =0AUSN-TPS IP CFI ATP=0AIV-P 440 hrs, IV-p 55 hrs, = EA50 20 hrs (+100hrs pre-Ch 11) --546723594-1862340753-1336675181=:31334 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
sarcasm = is the last refuge of the imaginatively bankrupt (C.C.  " city  o= f hopes")


From: = John Hafen <j.hafen@comcast.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 7:18 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in= IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50

=0A
Dr. Katz:
 
I=E2=80=99m glad your Evo is everything you thoug= ht it should be.  As it should be for several times the price of an IV= P.
 
Have you taken a ride= in an Avanti?  I think you=E2=80=99d like it.
 
Ch= eers,
 
John Hafen<= /div>
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lanc= aironline.net] On Behalf Of Dr Andres Katz
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 10:39= AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Necess= ity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50
 
interesting comments John:
 
let me point out a few differences:
I have seen man= y IV-P's in my career, I pay attention to all of them
I even watched a guy in the dallas = area hire a bunch of roofers build 4 IV-P's in succesion until the FAA got = him out of the business.
Every one is a bit different and depending in who built it t= he quality changes.
 
I spent 6 years with a mechanical engineer with expertise on aircra= ft adhesives as my main builder assist with whom I spent the entire 6 years= doing my IV.
 
all evos flying have been built (with one or 2 exceptions= ) with major factory supervision
power plant is usually a well know PW with years of = experience and no shock cooling or cylinder unexpected failures (or cranksh= aft separation) or worries about who used LOP or ROP etc etc etc.
<= div class=3D"yiv2136534007MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white;">the airplane is not demanding in l= anding (I land mine at 70 kts with no trouble) so you wont see the deadly s= tall in turn to downwind scenarios. 
 
I wont hesitate to purchase an used Evo any= time
I wi= ll certainly hesitate a lot about buying an used IV-P for the above reason<= /span>
but I have been wrong in my l= ife so many times that I would not dare put a cent in aviation. Flying is f= un to me so far
 
and I have not been paid by the factory to say all this.
=  
ak
=
 
<= /div>
<= span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: sans-serif; ">Fro= m: John Barrett <jbar= rett@carbinge.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 11:3= 0 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beat= s EA50
 
Are we getting into a IVP vs Ev= olution war here?  Not much future in that, but I do recall when I sta= rted building my IVP two lifetimes ago, that one of the major incentives wa= s investment resale value.  I was going to be adding to my net worth b= y building this thing. 
 
=
Now it=E2=80=99s worth a lot less than I have in it. 
 
No reason to expect time and circumstances to be so unkind to = Evo owners but it is true that things rarely turn out just the way we think= they will when we get down the road.   
 
Regards,
Jo= hn Barrett
 = ;
 <= span style=3D"color:black;">
 
From: Lan= cair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of bu131@swbell.net
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 9:= 46 AM
To: lml@lancairon= line.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P st= ill beats EA50
 
You are so kind with= your comments
The original question was using an early eclipse vintage,= certainly we are not talking about gulfstreams here
Keep in mind I have= no idea of the cost of a vintage eclipse but I can assure you that the res= ale value of an evo will beat the hell of whatever investment you put on th= e initial choice
And I hope you have a good day too
<= span style=3D"color:black;">Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
From: "John Hafen" <j.hafen@comcast.net>
Sender: "= Lancair Mailing List" <lml@lan= caironline.net>
Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 07:51:= 20 -0400
ReplyTo: "Lancair Mail= ing List" <lml@lancaironline.n= et>
Subjec= t: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV= -P? IV-P still beats EA50
 
Well, perhaps b= ecause the Evo costs 3X what my IVP costs.
 
Why don=E2=80=99t you try a Citation, or a Gulfstream?
 
John Hafen
IVP 413AJ 400 Hours
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Dr Andres Katz
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 9:13 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
<= b>Subject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50
 
w= hy dont you try an evo
i get 300+ to 310 at 28k usually run 28 gph and goes 1500 miles
<= div class=3D"yiv2136534007MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white;">check flightaware for mine redmond dallas non stop with = 15 kts tailwind
lande= d with 40 gallons 
the final a/c after the guys at lancair diddled with it and placed an ad= ditional air cooler in front of the cowling works perfectly i even have a f= resh air modulator now
beats the hell of the eclipse and the new garmin a/p works as magic inste= ad of the 
*%#* sorcerer
 
From: "= cwfmd@yahoo.com" <cwfmd@yahoo.com&= gt;
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Friday, M= ay 4, 2012 9:25 AM
Subject: [LML] Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P = still beats EA50
 
I tried flying witho= ut AC in the summer in Houston. You can dump the door seal and get some rel= ief above say 6000 feet, but I wouldn't do it with passengers, ears etc. I = also tried hot wx army vests with cooling. Weird feeling too cold over your= chest and your head's too hot.... The desert cooler worked pretty good but= iced up the windows... cool but IMC
 After about 3 years of this, we installed AC.
&nb= sp;We just made a deal on an early "vintage" Eclipse. We are using it in an= Aero Engineering course at Rice U. RVSM pending and Engine AD restrict us = to FL280 and I get 203 KEAS at 530 pph ~80gph
IV-P 205 KIAS at FL240 and= 75% 25 gph, So far Eclipse Air Conditioning is not very good- same problem= as Lancair with heat loading of cabin with bleed air.
 We're consi= dering a West coast trip next week from Houston via Colorado/Wyoming to COE= , Idaho, then SEA, RDM Oregon, SJC/MRY CA, and back to TX. If you are heade= d along such a route and want to share a VLJ, collect some Performance data= , and stick time, for some gas money, give me a holler.
Bill Miller, USN-TPS IP CFI ATP
IV-P 440 hrs, IV-p 55 hrs, EA50 20 hrs (+100hrs pre-= Ch 11)
 
 


=
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