X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 13:38:38 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm24.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.151] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.5) with SMTP id 5527946 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 08 May 2012 12:47:06 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.151; envelope-from=bu131@swbell.net Received: from [98.139.44.97] by nm24.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2012 16:46:30 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.93] by tm2.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2012 16:46:30 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1030.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 May 2012 16:46:30 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 329367.81123.bm@omp1030.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 90032 invoked by uid 60001); 8 May 2012 16:46:30 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=swbell.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ZCIPVz/lDRDsJiqAX5xAJPnPHAQW8EO1F4QTFUpqf/Qey2kTKl/mMF0XZJXvVsVNYWb7QVpdYlfYzG8TUMb+LnInL4pcUeLK/l46mGKwCD1IKoddS0uL3HP5IVRVligpNwSpUGZRoCTSLcLx95g0y7znlsRWceExuLsmgcI/8r8=; X-YMail-OSG: qNq9ZEwVM1k.rSioqCEcVBfNZ.P6l8CBhh0PNaolXTSvxIa 66YV8Y1EXjQMkPxHOkyEI2j8sHZIVIdpLarArk4LgbSPK9TWrHlFjeP8ri_g Xe6YFYtr5c2FMQk4.5Da08o7.YFNcb_8n6QhRnnXOO5r05UhDA.hKsOZVDRS riC_7NzWeY8Q_O.VbuYaU2Kz_5MWPe.Xky.QVy2anvcn0Aa4XmPsGKYNSk7f TUUDnFuYsZ8ZJDOptIxkbGETsJOEaOawzCzpomyFK7FRxmOgmrmOsyMya18Y j_0GqNNRcRaufoyB6sH0WCyZLSFnlRWvtS1HPglSMe7uEzRnhKnh7buX9dEw u6guOdxwmuKJmORjIAQCZTdj9bxDI7awEHgnTqtxazG9_ZCW2OJ2oenKRJUH hf7k5Z7NYCDEMG8RzR8vPLfuOLTeOVFi3i0sJ59e1D8nz.XAVC5phd4eW099 6cHgcY6pSRFx1tJ18k65MCNVm9e.3VpR.1deU5DmXcEO1XNuUDk_4UM93At7 Hg1ng3xsJZqsr5C70zgkQnCrVjhIdNuc- Received: from [208.189.200.2] by web80002.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 08 May 2012 09:46:29 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.117.340979 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1336495589.62026.YahooMailNeo@web80002.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 09:46:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Dr Andres Katz Reply-To: Dr Andres Katz Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1479734731-2100860233-1336495589=:62026" ---1479734731-2100860233-1336495589=:62026 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable interesting comments John:=0A=0Alet me point out a few differences:=0AI hav= e seen many IV-P's in my career, I pay attention to all of them=0AI even wa= tched a guy in the dallas area hire a bunch of roofers build 4 IV-P's in su= ccesion until the FAA got him out of the business.=0AEvery one is a bit dif= ferent and depending in who built it the quality changes.=0A=0AI spent 6 ye= ars with a mechanical engineer with expertise on aircraft adhesives as my m= ain builder assist with whom I spent the entire 6 years doing my IV.=0A=0AI= n contrast all Evo's are factory matched, built with factory assistance, no= chance of leaving the plastic protective layer in prior to hysol (like one= unfortunate mexican builder who did not know about that layer and the airp= lane had to be trashed)=0Aall evos flying have been built (with one or 2 ex= ceptions) with major factory supervision=0Apower plant is usually a well kn= ow PW with years of experience and no shock cooling or cylinder unexpected = failures (or crankshaft separation) or worries about who used LOP or ROP et= c etc etc.=0Athe airplane is not demanding in landing (I land mine at 70 kt= s with no trouble) so you wont see the deadly stall in turn to downwind sce= narios.=C2=A0=0A=0AI wont hesitate to purchase an used Evo any time=0AI wil= l certainly hesitate a lot about buying an used IV-P for the above reason= =0Abut I have been wrong in my life so many times that I would not dare put= a cent in aviation. Flying is fun to me so far=0A=0Aand I have not been pa= id by the factory to say all this.=0A=0Aak=0A=0A=0A________________________= ________=0A From: John Barrett =0ATo: lml@lancaironl= ine.net =0ASent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 11:30 AM=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Necessi= ty of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50=0A =0A=0AAre we getting into a IVP= vs Evolution war here?=C2=A0 Not much future in that, but I do recall when= I started building my IVP two lifetimes ago, that one of the major incenti= ves was investment resale value.=C2=A0 I was going to be adding to my net w= orth by building this thing.=C2=A0 =0A=C2=A0=0ANow it=E2=80=99s worth a lot= less than I have in it.=C2=A0 =0A=C2=A0=0ANo reason to expect time and cir= cumstances to be so unkind to Evo owners but it is true that things rarely = turn out just the way we think they will when we get down the road. =C2=A0= =C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0ARegards,=0AJohn Barrett=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0AFrom= :Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of bu131@swb= ell.net=0ASent: Monday, May 07, 2012 9:46 AM=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net=0A= Subject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50=0A=C2=A0= =0AYou are so kind with your comments=0AThe original question was using an = early eclipse vintage, certainly we are not talking about gulfstreams here= =0AKeep in mind I have no idea of the cost of a vintage eclipse but I can a= ssure you that the resale value of an evo will beat the hell of whatever in= vestment you put on the initial choice=0AAnd I hope you have a good day too= =0ASent via BlackBerry by AT&T=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AF= rom: "John Hafen" =0ASender: "Lancair Mailing List" <= lml@lancaironline.net> =0ADate: Mon, 07 May 2012 07:51:20 -0400=0ATo: =0AReplyTo: "Lancair Mailing List" =0ASubject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50=0A= =C2=A0=0AWell, perhaps because the Evo costs 3X what my IVP costs.=0A=C2=A0= =0AWhy don=E2=80=99t you try a Citation, or a Gulfstream?=0A=C2=A0=0AJohn H= afen=0AIVP 413AJ 400 Hours=0A=C2=A0=0AFrom:Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml= @lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dr Andres Katz=0ASent: Friday, May 04, 201= 2 9:13 AM=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C= in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50=0A=C2=A0=0Awhy dont you try an evo=0Ai get = 300+ to 310 at 28k usually run 28 gph and goes 1500 miles=0Acheck flightawa= re for mine redmond dallas non stop with 15 kts tailwind=0Alanded with 40 g= allons=C2=A0=0Athe final a/c after the guys at lancair diddled with it and = placed an additional air cooler in front of the cowling works perfectly i e= ven have a fresh air modulator now=0Abeats the hell of the eclipse and the = new garmin a/p works as magic instead of the=C2=A0=0A*%#* sorcerer=0A=C2=A0= =0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:"cwfmd@yahoo.com" =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Friday, May 4, 2012 9:25 AM= =0ASubject: [LML] Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50=0A=C2=A0= =0AI tried flying without AC in the summer in Houston. You can dump the doo= r seal and get some relief above say 6000 feet, but I wouldn't do it with p= assengers, ears etc. I also tried hot wx army vests with cooling. Weird fee= ling too cold over your chest and your head's too hot.... The desert cooler= worked pretty good but iced up the windows... cool but IMC=0A=C2=A0After a= bout 3 years of this, we installed AC.=0A=C2=A0We just made a deal on an ea= rly "vintage" Eclipse. We are using it in an Aero Engineering course at Ric= e U. RVSM pending and Engine AD restrict us to FL280 and I get 203 KEAS at = 530 pph ~80gph=0AIV-P 205 KIAS at FL240 and 75% 25 gph, So far Eclipse Air = Conditioning is not very good- same problem as Lancair with heat loading of= cabin with bleed air.=0A=C2=A0We're considering a West coast trip next wee= k from Houston via Colorado/Wyoming to COE, Idaho, then SEA, RDM Oregon, SJ= C/MRY CA, and back to TX. If you are headed along such a route and want to = share a VLJ, collect some Performance data, and stick time, for some gas mo= ney, give me a holler.=0ABill Miller, =0AUSN-TPS IP CFI ATP=0AIV-P 440 hrs,= IV-p 55 hrs, EA50 20 hrs (+100hrs pre-Ch 11) ---1479734731-2100860233-1336495589=:62026 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
interest= ing comments John:

let m= e point out a few differences:
I have seen many IV-P= 's in my career, I pay attention to all of them
I even wat= ched a guy in the dallas area hire a bunch of roofers build 4 IV-P's in suc= cesion until the FAA got him out of the business.
Every one is a = bit different and depending in who built it the quality changes.
=
I spent 6 years with a mechanical engineer with expertise on= aircraft adhesives as my main builder assist with whom I spent the entire = 6 years doing my IV.

In contrast all Evo's are fac= tory matched, built with factory assistance, no chance of leaving the plast= ic protective layer in prior to hysol (like one unfortunate mexican builder who did not know about that layer and the airplane had to be trash= ed)
all evos flying have been built (with one or 2 exceptions) wi= th major factory supervision
power plant is usually a well know P= W with years of experience and no shock cooling or cylinder unexpected fail= ures (or crankshaft separation) or worries about who used LOP or ROP etc et= c etc.
the airplane is not demanding in landing (I land mine at 7= 0 kts with no trouble) so you wont see the deadly stall in turn to downwind= scenarios. 

I wont hesitate to purchase an u= sed Evo any time
I will certainly hesitate a lot about buying an = used IV-P for the above reason
but I have been wrong in my life s= o many times that I would not dare put a cent in aviation. Flying is fun to= me so far

and I have not been paid by the factory= to say all this.

ak

=20
From: John Barrett <jbarrett@carbinge.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 11:30 AM
= Subject: [LML] Re: Necessi= ty of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50

=0A
Are we getting into a IVP vs Evolution war here?&n= bsp; Not much future in that, but I do recall when I started building my IV= P two lifetimes ago, that one of the major incentives was investment resale= value.  I was going to be adding to my net worth by building this thi= ng. 
 = ;
Now it=E2=80=99= s worth a lot less than I have in it. 
 
No reason to expect time and circumstances to be so unkind to Evo owner= s but it is true that things rarely turn out just the way we think they wil= l when we get down the road.   
 
Regards,
<= span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: sans-s= erif; ">John Barrett
 
 
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [ma= ilto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of bu131@swbell.net
Sent= : Monday, May 07, 2012 9:46 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
<= b>Subject: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50
 
You are so kind with your comments
The= original question was using an early eclipse vintage, certainly we are not= talking about gulfstreams here
Keep in mind I have no idea of the cost = of a vintage eclipse but I can assure you that the resale value of an evo will = beat the hell of whatever investment you put on the initial choice
And I= hope you have a good day too
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
= From: "John Hafen" <j.hafen= @comcast.net>
= Sender: "Lancair Mailing List" <lml@lancaironline.net>
Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 07:51:20 -0400
<= div>
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
ReplyTo: "Lancair Mailing List" <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Re: Necess= ity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50
 
Well, perhaps because the Evo costs 3X what my IVP costs.<= /div>
 
Why don=E2=80=99t you try a Citat= ion, or a Gulfstream?
 
Jo= hn Hafen
IVP 413A= J 400 Hours
&nbs= p;
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dr = Andres Katz
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 9:13 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subje= ct: [LML] Re: Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P still beats EA50
 
=
why dont you try an evo
i get 300+ to 310 at = 28k usually run 28 gph and goes 1500 miles
check flightaware for mine redmond dal= las non stop with 15 kts tailwind
landed with 40 gallons 
=
the final a/c after the guys at la= ncair diddled with it and placed an additional air cooler in front of the c= owling works perfectly i even have a fresh air modulator now
<= span style=3D"color: black; font-family: serif; ">beats the hell of the ecl= ipse and the new garmin a/p works as magic instead of the 
*%#* sorcerer
 
<= div class=3D"yiv276771793MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:ce= nter;background:white;">
= Fr= om: "cwfmd@yahoo.com" <cwfmd@yahoo.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Friday, M= ay 4, 2012 9:25 AM
Subject: [LML] Necessity of A/C in IV-P? IV-P = still beats EA50
 
I tried flying without AC in the summer in Ho= uston. You can dump the door seal and get some relief above say 6000 feet, = but I wouldn't do it with passengers, ears etc. I also tried hot wx army ve= sts with cooling. Weird feeling too cold over your chest and your head's to= o hot.... The desert cooler worked pretty good but iced up the windows... c= ool but IMC
 After about 3 years of this, we installed AC.
 We jus= t made a deal on an early "vintage" Eclipse. We are using it in an Aero Eng= ineering course at Rice U. RVSM pending and Engine AD restrict us to FL280 = and I get 203 KEAS at 530 pph ~80gph
IV-P 205 KIAS at FL240 and 75% 25 g= ph, So far Eclipse Air Conditioning is not very good- same problem as Lanca= ir with heat loading of cabin with bleed air.
 We're considering a = West coast trip next week from Houston via Colorado/Wyoming to COE, Idaho, = then SEA, RDM Oregon, SJC/MRY CA, and back to TX. If you are headed along s= uch a route and want to share a VLJ, collect some Performance data, and sti= ck time, for some gas money, give me a holler.
Bill Miller,
USN-TPS = IP CFI ATP
IV-P 440 hrs, IV-p 55 hrs, EA50 20 hrs (+100hrs pre-Ch 11)
 
<= /div>

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