X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 00:01:40 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.63] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTP id 5478679 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 12 Apr 2012 10:44:40 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.63; envelope-from=panelmaker@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=VGFNruN8UMVVrEB+fqzHCnPYcGaa5S6k1TEAURKAv1pqyq8rgSdMZRTJPjJhrfGG; h=Received:From:To:References:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:Thread-Index:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [209.173.71.64] (helo=COMPUTER1) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1SILFm-0007h2-98 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 12 Apr 2012 10:44:06 -0400 From: "Jim Nordin" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" References: Subject: Engine "surge" issue X-Original-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:44:14 -0500 X-Original-Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004D_01CD1890.D23A3640" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Thread-Index: Ac0YVzq43MwTseyySya+CfqmwyY4cgAYGDsQ X-ELNK-Trace: bdfc62829fd2a80cc8ad50643b1069f8239a348a220c260914d70ed13e41f4efe9543c5b2e23191a667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.173.71.64 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01CD1890.D23A3640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A friend of mine "T'd" off the spider to a manually operated valve that allowed circulation back to one or the other tanks. Turn on the electric fuel pump and cool off the plumbing. Worked very well. Don't know the downside of this other than having the valve open at an inopportune time or some other failure. Metering (and I'm assuming counting here) is another matter. Jim _____ From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bruce Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 9:51 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Engine "surge" issue Heat soaked vapor lock is a problem in any closely cowled engine. There are 3 possible solutions, let the heat out, flush the heat out, or don't let the heat in. Let the heat out - I have seen internal hinged flapping louvers on the top of cowls that fall open from gravity when the engine is at rest. Internal high pressure forces them closed when the aircraft is in motion. One easy solution you might try is to open your oil dip stick access door and leave it open during your turn around. Flush the heat out - A metered fuel return line, from the fuel servo back to the main tank, metered to flow about 4-6 GPH will flush the fuel system of high temp fuel. And the lower temp wing fuel flow through the system will cool the servo, lines, and pump. Don't let the heat in - The last possible solution is to insulate the fuel lines and servo. All should be doing this by wrapping the fuel lines in fire sleeve. I don't know how one could insulate the fuel servo. I also don't know the heat transfer characteristics of fire sleeve in a heat soaked environment. Bruce www.Glasair.org Bruce WWW.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Sky2high@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:07 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Engine "surge" issue Berni, Check engine timing. Check for induction system air leaks. During the surging, does your fuel pressure display indicate changes in pressure? How about fuel flow? Fuel flow is typically sensed in the line that feeds the spider, thus nearer the end of the fuel's trip to the cylinder. Fuel pressure is typically sensed between the engine pump and throttle body. In some cases you may want to investigate the route from the firewall to the fuel pressure sensor. That is, thru gascolator/filter, boost pump and engine pump. The area betwixt the firewall and rear engine baffling can build up quite a bit of heat because of dead air. You may want to consider a blast tube on one or more of these components. Fire shielding all fluid lines is a good thing and protects from radiated heat, but also retains heat not dissipated by a slow flow of fresh cool fuel (idle flow). Usually, heat-soaking of the engine pump can occur after a shut-down and it may cavitate a bit until cooled by the fuel flow. Usually, turning on the boost pump raises the fuel pressure enough to eliminate vapor bubble formation or forces such bubbles back into the fuel. It is serious if that doesn't resolve surging. Consider these possibilities and investigate further. Scott Krueger In a message dated 4/9/2012 10:55:38 A.M. Central Daylight Time, randylsnarr@yahoo.com writes: Berni, 100 octane fuel boils at a very low temp. Fuel is boiling in the injection lines when the engine is hot when you are idling. When you are above idle there is enough fuel traversing the fuel lines to keep them under the boiling point which is why you only get this this at idle when the engine is hot. This was explained to me by don Rivera at airflow performance, he designed the bendix injection system and is the guy who designed the airflow performance system as well so he knows what he is talking about. This same reason is responsible for the hot start issues in our fuel injection set ups. This is normal... Randy Snarr N694RS Sent from my iPad On Apr 8, 2012, at 8:37 PM, Berni Breen wrote: > Whenever my GAMI injected IO360 powered Lancair 360 is really heated up, following a flight and only a short time to cool down (less than 30 minutes) and restarted, the engine will surge during idle and taxi. Again this only happens when the engine is hot, has been shut down and restarted. The issue never occurs when the airplane (engine) is started for the first time on any given day (super hot day or super cold day). > > Since I feel the issue is fuel related I tried leaning and use of the electronic fuel pump during idle and taxi with zero improvement. The engine runs very badly with a pronounced surge. If I get on the runway and give the engine full throttle, the engine will develop good power and lift off as if there were no issue...that is until yesterday when the engine just about quit 2000' into my takeoff roll. I aborted the takeoff, did some high speed taxiing and then took off 3 minutes later (no shutdown). > > Today I took off, climbed aggressively to get the engine good and hot and landed. I shutdown, let the engine sit for about 10 minutes, restarted and once again experienced the surge during idle and or taxiing. I removed the upper and lower cowl but am still not able to identify the cause of my issue. > > Clearly I have an issue that is caused by heat affecting fuel. All of my fuel lines are heat shielded. Can anyone offer suggestions or ideas that I can try? > > Berni -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01CD1890.D23A3640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A friend of mine = “T’d” off the spider to a manually operated valve that allowed circulation = back to one or the other tanks. Turn on the electric fuel pump and cool off the plumbing.

Worked very well. Don’t know = the downside of this other than having the valve open at an inopportune time = or some other failure. Metering (and I’m assuming counting here) is = another matter.

Jim

 

From: = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Wednesday, April = 11, 2012 9:51 PM
To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Engine "surge" issue

 

Heat soaked vapor = lock is a problem in any closely cowled engine. There are 3 possible solutions, = let the heat out, flush the heat out, or don't let the heat = in.

 

Let the heat out - = I have seen internal hinged flapping louvers on the top of cowls that fall open = from gravity when the engine is at rest. Internal high pressure forces them = closed when the aircraft is in motion. One easy solution you might try is to = open your oil dip stick access door and leave it open during your turn = around.

 

Flush the heat out = - A metered fuel return line, from the fuel servo back to the main tank, = metered to flow about 4-6 GPH will flush the fuel system of high temp fuel. And the = lower temp wing fuel flow through the system will cool the servo, lines, and = pump.

 

Don't let the heat = in - The last possible solution is to insulate the fuel lines and servo. All = should be doing this by wrapping the fuel lines in fire sleeve. I don't know how = one could insulate the fuel servo. I also don't know the heat transfer = characteristics of fire sleeve in a heat soaked environment.

 

Bruce

www.Glasair.org

 

 

 

Bruce
WWW.Glasair.org

-----Original = Message-----
From: Lancair Mailing = List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Sky2high@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, = 2012 4:07 PM
To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Engine "surge" issue

 

Berni,

 

 

Check engine timing.

Check for induction system air leaks.

 

During the surging, does your fuel pressure display indicate changes in pressure?  How about fuel flow?  Fuel flow is typically sensed = in the line that feeds the spider, thus nearer the end of the fuel's trip to = the cylinder.  Fuel pressure is typically sensed between the engine = pump and throttle body. 

 

In some cases you may want to investigate the route from the firewall to the fuel pressure sensor.  That is, thru gascolator/filter, boost = pump and engine pump.  The area betwixt the firewall and rear engine = baffling can build up quite a bit of heat because of dead air.  You may want = to consider a blast tube on one or more of these components.  Fire = shielding all fluid lines is a good thing and protects from radiated heat, but = also retains heat not dissipated by a slow flow of fresh cool fuel (idle flow).  Usually, heat-soaking of the engine pump can occur after a shut-down and it may cavitate a bit until cooled by the fuel flow.  Usually, turning on the boost pump raises the fuel pressure enough to = eliminate vapor bubble formation or forces such bubbles back into the = fuel.  It is serious if that doesn't resolve surging.

 

Consider these possibilities and investigate further.

 

Scott Krueger

 

 

In a message dated 4/9/2012 10:55:38 A.M. Central Daylight Time, randylsnarr@yahoo.com writes:

Berni, 100 octane fuel boils at a very low temp. Fuel is boiling in the injection = lines when the engine is hot when you are idling. When you are above idle = there is enough fuel traversing the fuel lines to keep them under the boiling = point which is why you only get this this at idle when the engine is hot.

This was explained to me by don Rivera at airflow performance, he = designed the bendix injection system and is the guy who designed the airflow = performance system as well so he knows what he is talking about. This same reason is responsible for the hot start issues in our fuel injection set ups.
This is normal...
Randy Snarr
N694RS


Sent from my iPad

On Apr 8, 2012, at 8:37 PM, Berni Breen <bbreen@cableone.net> = wrote:

> Whenever my GAMI injected IO360 powered Lancair 360 is really = heated up, following a flight and only a short time to cool down (less than 30 = minutes) and restarted, the engine will surge during idle and taxi.  Again = this only happens when the engine is hot, has been shut down and = restarted.  The issue never occurs when the airplane (engine) is started for the first = time on any given day (super hot day or super cold day).
>
> Since I feel the issue is fuel related I tried leaning and use of = the electronic fuel pump during idle and taxi with zero improvement.  = The engine runs very badly with a pronounced surge.  If I get on the = runway and give the engine full throttle, the engine will develop good power = and lift off as if there were no issue...that is until yesterday when the engine = just about quit 2000' into my takeoff roll.  I aborted the takeoff, did = some high speed taxiing and then took off 3 minutes later (no shutdown).
>
> Today I took off, climbed aggressively to get the engine good and = hot and landed.  I shutdown, let the engine sit for about 10 minutes, = restarted and once again experienced the surge during idle and or taxiing.  I removed the upper and lower cowl but am still not able to identify the = cause of my issue.
>
> Clearly I have an issue that is caused by heat affecting = fuel.  All of my fuel lines are heat shielded.  Can anyone offer suggestions = or ideas that I can try?
>
> Berni

--
For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html

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