X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 15:56:29 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from raven.ravenwebhosting.com ([72.9.254.67] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTPS id 5449766 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 15:15:57 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=72.9.254.67; envelope-from=paul@tbm700.com Received: from [67.8.30.163] (port=52166 helo=[192.168.15.100]) by raven.ravenwebhosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1SA4We-0003GO-G0 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 20 Mar 2012 15:15:20 -0400 From: paul miller Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--371102044 Subject: Re: [LML] Rain, primer, and paint X-Original-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 15:14:59 -0400 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - raven.ravenwebhosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - lancaironline.net X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - tbm700.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: --Apple-Mail-1--371102044 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It may not be a simple rain issue. I've noticed many Lancair fibreglass = components don't get covered with the proper anti-static primer as = required for commercial and MIL-SPEC paint systems. Wicks help but they = won't discharge the 100kV from a Legacy wingtip because there is no path = from the paint surface to the static wick. WIth that kind of voltage = built up in precipitation, radios will disappear and small pin holes = will be blasted in the paint as little lightning strikes exit the paint = surface. In the days of ADF, the needle would spin aimlessly and today I = know my Legacy radios die in dry snow. You can actually see sparks at = night in snow or rain if you are in this situation. I don't know the WLS system but many of you are using PPG paints and = they have an anti-static system for composite aircraft. This is one = example: = http://www.ppg.com/location/chinaaerospace/en/products/aerospacecoatings/c= oatingssystemintroduction/Documents/GA_Coatings2.pdf I'd really be interested in anyone who has used the 528X310 anti-static = primer used in this system because I want to re-do my Legacy fibreglass = wingtips especially since that's where one or more antennae are located. Who does this properly? I've talked to expert paint shops all over = Canada and the US and the typical response is that they've never had a = problem with any paint job. It was only when I spoke to Field Aviation = in Toronto that I learned about the military and commercial requirements = for static protection and the messy black primers that were required to = be used. After that, I took my Cessna back to the paint shop and when = they applied the proper coatings, all those problems disappeared. = Today, you have white, grey and other primer colors to use for static = protection so that's not a problem. If you're doing paint, it would pay to look at this issue. It makes no = sense to get into precipitation or moisture and degrade the systems that = might be needed to get out of weather. IFR isn't the reason to use such = a paint system. The use of non-conductive composite components is the = reason it is required. Does anyone have experience with a paint shop that knows this stuff? I = would be interested to hear how other owners have or have not dealt with = this issue. BTW, I have a certified aircraft with 17 years of original paint with = 2000+ hours and used in hard IFR, snow, rain at 285KTAS. Beyond a few = stone chips there is no erosion or wear except for a few pinholes in the = composite wingtips where they apparently forgot to use the correct = primer. So, aerospace paints can definitely hold up to continuous rain = and IFR conditions without concern for years. Paul Spruce Creek FL Legacy RG On 2012-03-19, at 6:17 AM, Charles Brown wrote: > OK, the guys who already know this can sit back and chuckle, the rest = of you, here's a bulletin on flying IFR in primer. I gather that WLS = primer is not as hard as paint and about a half hour in moderate rain at = 210ktas was enough to visibly erode small areas of all the leading = edges. I think all that really happened was that defects in the = underlying layers, which had been filled by WLS, were revealed. At any = rate, there were numerous small areas (largest: 1/4" X 1/4"; most areas = smaller) where pinholes, underlying BID mesh, and occasional air bubbles = in micro were revealed. Recommendation: fly with a harder coating than = WLS or avoid rain. The WLS held up just fine in ordinary flying for 100 = hours. >=20 > I've scheduled paint as soon as I can get into the shop, in the = meantime I'm repairing the leading edges and spraying the repairs with = K36 primer which the paint shop recommended (and I can get a quart for = $80 rather than paying $300 for a gallon of WLS). Then, until painting, = I'll cover the leading edges with leading edge tape. >=20 > Question for you IFR guys with APA (Already-Painted Airplanes): = What's your experience with rain and paint? =20 >=20 > Charley Brown > Legacy #299 100 hours > -- > For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html --Apple-Mail-1--371102044 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii It = may not be a simple rain issue.  I've noticed many Lancair = fibreglass components don't get covered with the proper anti-static = primer as required for commercial and MIL-SPEC paint systems. =  Wicks help but they won't discharge the 100kV from a Legacy = wingtip because there is no path from the paint surface to the static = wick.   WIth that kind of voltage built up in precipitation, radios = will disappear and small pin holes will be blasted in the paint as = little lightning strikes exit the paint surface. In the days of ADF, the = needle would spin aimlessly and today I know my Legacy radios die in dry = snow.    You can actually see sparks at night in snow or rain = if you are in this situation.

I don't know the WLS = system but many of you are using PPG paints and they have an anti-static = system for composite aircraft.   This is one = example:


I'd = really be interested in anyone who has used the 528X310 anti-static = primer used in this system because I want to re-do my Legacy fibreglass = wingtips especially since that's where one or more antennae are = located.

Who does this properly?  I've = talked to expert paint shops all over Canada and the US and the typical = response is that they've never had a problem with any paint job.   = It was only when I spoke to Field Aviation in Toronto that I learned = about the military and commercial requirements for static protection and = the messy black primers that were required to be used.  After that, = I took my Cessna back to the paint shop and when they applied the proper = coatings, all those problems disappeared.  Today, you have white, = grey and other primer colors to use for static protection so that's not = a problem.

If you're doing paint, it would pay = to look at this issue. It makes no sense to get into precipitation or = moisture and degrade the systems that might be needed to get out of = weather.  IFR isn't the reason to use such a paint system. =  The use of non-conductive composite components is the reason it is = required.

Does anyone have experience with a = paint shop that knows this stuff?   I would be interested to hear = how other owners have or have not dealt with this = issue.

BTW, I have a certified aircraft with 17 = years of original paint with 2000+ hours and used in hard IFR, snow, = rain at 285KTAS.  Beyond a few stone chips there is no erosion or = wear except for a few pinholes in the composite wingtips where they = apparently forgot to use the correct primer.   So, aerospace paints = can definitely hold up to continuous rain and IFR conditions without = concern for years.

Paul
Spruce Creek = FL Legacy RG
On 2012-03-19, at 6:17 AM, Charles Brown = wrote:

OK, the guys who already know this can sit back and = chuckle, the rest of you, here's a bulletin on flying IFR in primer. =  I gather that WLS primer is not as hard as paint and about a half = hour in moderate rain at 210ktas was enough to visibly erode small areas = of all the leading edges.  I think all that really happened was = that defects in the underlying layers, which had been filled by WLS, = were revealed.  At any rate, there were numerous small areas = (largest:  1/4" X 1/4"; most areas smaller) where pinholes, = underlying BID mesh, and occasional air bubbles in micro were revealed. =  Recommendation:  fly with a harder coating than WLS or avoid = rain.  The WLS held up just fine in ordinary flying for 100 = hours.

I've scheduled paint as soon as I can get into the shop, = in the meantime I'm repairing the leading edges and spraying the repairs = with K36 primer which the paint shop recommended (and I can get a quart = for $80 rather than paying $300 for a gallon of WLS).  Then, until = painting, I'll cover the leading edges with leading edge = tape.

Question for you IFR guys with APA (Already-Painted = Airplanes):  What's your experience with rain and paint? =  

Charley Brown
Legacy #299  100 hours
--
For = archives and unsub http://mail.= lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html
<= br>
= --Apple-Mail-1--371102044--