X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 08:05:15 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm26.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.91.96] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with SMTP id 5387133 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 08 Feb 2012 01:23:04 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.91.96; envelope-from=chris_zavatson@yahoo.com Received: from [98.139.91.64] by nm26.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2012 06:22:29 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.3] by tm4.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2012 06:22:29 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1003.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2012 06:22:29 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 82281.19751.bm@omp1003.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 69983 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Feb 2012 06:22:28 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=V4uAt0k3NawG+IOM9EiCAFWuoSJJQub1iNfsx2G+7DkB+Zsf3eU/axvCr15fmucHJ3C+j4yu1xiAWLXR9U69i3D1719X3S2eiNYsIlT4kLGxe53DRvxydyRExad4HzP4e+Q+vl9Sti2SV7WX6nK+tmupjWbaIRMbyBlBRalllNw=; X-YMail-OSG: 6s02HIEVM1nf..airRY.cOmk_Ls5UCmYUZcp7FeMzSimd0q ZyMEMLWexfcsAiMZD2a_7I3ry4IGQ4aH9qZ3jxIQeSgLwXDwpfx1hOlDlfjw 8OZCbYQsVyBszbxy4HRB4wNSetcblQ2AtIPH6JH5lRABLEqajr9Gtmyw651h RKfyeXPNHYcRWOM1cFxVfeMeHRsjrcT6h7ey2AjXWZtEmnYLropclpDJ1vZF aqUe9oBgA5QnojNjLoogUMsVe_Xc5vTpDznaERuB15YoLBKrrtyUajpdvIwH jcyKj5CCep_.nfD_o_ZjKSV86sUl92h2lELWa6MNJktAV2cY1HKV40eR3x7X RXsXiir4qsE.EcodkuCO0jhBxzkMgHa5LtFHW42fMXgaYIjVdo3oLc2H4Esd WMFWPj3i6uNNwk_0LEQb.GK4DTiCZrbXyMeFvaD7JReV7yaint_TbJtQIzO2 X2B7RA40zFIwkNtYfsqm26TdMzF4Nb3NRRngKZzvVmgOIkUAx7wZip.Msuib 4LHOyvxCYIAq2Q.ZE0BSVr52jnhYKTD_T4a_4UG3xpd_jjxXQryqvC1zXKbn EpofNZiVt3bBNfs4Bfx0fNuV.yNkPcZfHnnFm Received: from [99.152.23.138] by web36901.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 07 Feb 2012 22:22:28 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.116.338427 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1328682148.17728.YahooMailNeo@web36901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:22:28 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Zavatson Reply-To: Chris Zavatson Subject: Re: [LML] Fw: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-2114655128-1300373217-1328682148=:17728" ---2114655128-1300373217-1328682148=:17728 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wolfgang,=0AThe ball and spring go in the port labeled "Cavity "E" Back-Pre= ssure".=A0 This is the pipe plug that sits in between the two output ports.= =0A=A0=0AYou might consider securing the dump valve with a secondary lockin= g feature.=A0 It too relies on friction alone to stay in position.=A0 Serio= usly, given the force it takes to move the spool, if mine were not staying = put, I would=A0want to know why.=A0 =0A=A0=0AFrom previous measurements:=0A= Using O-ring=A0013-70 requires 30 g's to move the spool.=0AUsing O-ring=A00= 13-90 requires 70 g's to move the spool. =0AThe 013-90 is=A0specified for p= umps with back pressure circuits such as we have.=0A=0A=A0=0AChris Zavatson= =0AN91CZ=0A360std=0Awww.N91CZ.net=0A=0A=A0=0AFrom: Wolfgang =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Monday, February 6, 2012 9:24 AM= =0ASubject: [LML] Fw: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch=0A=0A=0AI= see the centering springs but what about the added spring, eyelet and ball= ? Where does that fit into the schematic ?=0A=0AI still don't like the ide= a of friction being the only thing keeping spindle at it's end point. Sure,= removing the springs will help but a positive system to pressure the spind= le back into it's required position automatically as needed still seems pru= dent.=0A=0AWolfgang=0A=0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: Chris Zavats= on =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 8:34 AM= =0ASubject: Re: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch=0A=0ASeveral fo= lks have been asking privately about the spool centering springs mentioned = below.=A0 This link contains both schematics and photos=A0showing how to re= vert=A0a new pump back to=A0the original 320/360 functionality.=A0 =0Ahttp:= //www.n91cz.com/Hydraulics/Pump-Unlock.pdf=0A=0AChris Zavatson=0AN91CZ=0A36= 0std=0Awww.N91CZ.net=0A=0A=0AFrom: Chris Zavatson =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 12:46 PM= =0ASubject: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch=0A=0A=0ALorn,=0AHad= the temperature been 90 or 100 degrees your pressure would have been even = higher.=A0 In some of my hydraulics videos, you will=A0see the 2,000 psi ga= uge pegged on occasion during thermal heating tests.=0A=0Ahttp://www.n91cz.= com/Hydraulics/Lancair_Hydraulics.htm=0A=0AYour predicament=A0of having to = crack a hydraulic line is exactly what can happen if the spool centers afte= r pump shut down.=A0 I find that a completely unacceptable design.=A0 Imagi= ne taking off into IMC and the gear won't come up.=A0 I had the opportunity= to test out a pump in this configuration last summer.=A0 Just as you exper= ienced, I was able to reproduce a complete lock up.=A0 =0Ahttp://www.n91cz.= com/Hydraulics/NewPumpLockUp_0001.wmv=A0- hi res=0Ahttp://www.n91cz.com/Hyd= raulics/NewPumpLockUp_0002.wmv=A0- low res=0A=0AAfter discussions with Lanc= air and Parker, I reverted the configuration back to the original 320/360 c= onfig and all is good now.=A0 Only one side can ever be pressurized at a ti= me.=A0 Unfortunately due to employee turn-over, no one currently at Parker = or Lancair knows why the centering springs were added.=A0 After reviewing t= he 320/360 system both agreed that a system lock up is possible using repla= cement pumps currently sold (108AMS32-CZZ-3V-14-08-Y).=A0 Parker sent me pa= rts to revert three pumps back to the original configuration.=A0=0A=A0=0ATh= e TRVs in our pumps are the lowest available -fixed setting of 2,500 psi.= =A0 This may be too high=A0to protect=A0some of our components.=A0 I=A0have= =A0run them up=A0to 2,000 psi.=A0 In flight, I have seen 1,800 psi, descend= ing from 18k into the southwest deserts.=0A=0AChris Zavatson=0AN91CZ=0A360s= td=0Awww.N91CZ.net=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: Lorn H Olsen =0ATo: l= ml@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 6:33 AM=0ASubject= : [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch=0A=0AAgain,=0A=0AMy Oildyne i= nternal pressure switch came (set by Oildyne) at 1,500 PSI. How do I know? = I parked my plane on the ramp at Newport News, Va in the evening. The tempe= rature was 40=B0F. 3 days later, when I was going to take off. The temperat= ure was 80=B0F. I looked at my pressure gauges. Both the up and down were a= t 1,500 PSI. I had to crack a nut in a hydraulic line to release the pressu= re. The gear would not go up or down, at this pressure. The emergency dump = valve would not release, at this pressure. The pump would not run at all, a= t this pressure.=0A=0ANow, I have Wolfgang's high pressure adapter in the s= ystem. It runs the pump whenever the pressure is high on both the up and th= e down side.=0A=0AThere is no speculation here. Just the facts, mam.=0A=0A= =0A--=0ALorn H. 'Feathers' Olsen, MAA, ASMEL, ASES, Comm, Inst=0ADynaComm, = Corp., 248-345-0500, mailto:lorn@dynacomm.us=0ALNC2, FB90/92, O-320-D1F, 1,= 800 hrs, N31161, Y47, SE Michigan=0A=0A=0A--=0AFor archives and unsub http:= //mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html ---2114655128-1300373217-1328682148=:17728 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wolfgang,
The ball and spring = go in the port labeled "Cavity "E" Back-Pressure".  This is the pipe p= lug that sits in between the two output ports.
 
<= SPAN style=3D"RIGHT: auto" id=3Dyiv790967783yui_3_2_0_17_132865856497272>Yo= u might consider securing the dump valve with a secondary locking feature.&= nbsp; It too relies on friction alone to stay in position.  Seriously,= given the force it takes to move the spool, if mine were not staying put, = I would want to know why. 
 
From previous measur= ements:
Using O-ring 013-70 requires 30 g's to move the spool.
Using O-ring 013-90 requires 70 g's to move the spool.=20
The 013-90 is specified for pumps with back= pressure circuits such as we have.
 
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std

 
From: Wolfgang <Wolfgang@MiCom.net= >
To: lml@lancaironli= ne.net
Sent: Monday, Fe= bruary 6, 2012 9:24 AM
Subject: [LML] Fw: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch

I see the centering springs but what about the added spring, eyelet an= d ball ? Where does that fit into the schematic ?
 
I still don't like the idea of friction being the only thing keeping s= pindle at it's end point. Sure, removing the springs will help but a positi= ve system to pressure the spindle back into it's required position automati= cally as needed still seems prudent.
 
Wolfgang
 
----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch
<= /DIV>

Several folks have been asking privately about the spool centering spr= ings mentioned below.  This link contains both schematics and photos&n= bsp;showing how to revert a new pump back to the original 320/360= functionality. 
http://www.n91cz.com/Hydraulics/Pump-Unlock.pdf
 
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std


From: Chris Zavatson <<= A href=3D"mailto:chris_zavatson@yahoo.com" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank y= mailto=3D"mailto:chris_zavatson@yahoo.com">chris_zavatson@yahoo.com>=
To: lml@lancaironline.n= et
Sent: Wednesday, Feb= ruary 1, 2012 12:46 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch

Lorn,
Had the temperature been 90 or 100 degrees your pressure would have be= en even higher.  In some of my hydraulics videos, you will see th= e 2,000 psi gauge pegged on occasion during thermal heating tests.
 
http://www.n91cz.com/Hydraulics/Lancair_Hydraulics.htm
 
Your predicament of having to crack a hydraulic line is exactly w= hat can happen if the spool centers after pump shut down.  I find that= a completely unacceptable design.  Imagine taking off into IMC and th= e gear won't come up.  I had the opportunity to test out a pump in thi= s configuration last summer.  Just as you experienced, I was able to r= eproduce a complete lock up. 
http://www.n91cz.com/Hydraulics/NewPumpLockUp_0001.wmv - hi res
http://www.n91cz.com/Hydraulics/NewPumpLockUp_0002.wmv - low res<= /DIV>
 
After discussions with Lancair and Parker, I reverted the config= uration back to the original 320/3= 60 config and all is good now.  Only one side can ever be pressurized = at a time.  Unfortunately due to employee turn-over, no one currently = at Parker or Lancair knows why the centering springs were added.  Afte= r reviewing the 320/360 system both agreed that a system lock up is possibl= e using replacement pumps currently sold (108AMS32-CZZ-3V-14-08-Y).  P= arker sent me parts to revert three pumps back to the original configuratio= n. 
 
The TRVs in our pumps are the lowest available -fixed setting of 2,500= psi.  This may be too high to protect some of our component= s.  I have run them up to 2,000 psi.  In flight, I= have seen 1,800 psi, descending from 18k into the southwest deserts.
 
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
 
 

From: Lorn H Olsen <lorn@dynacomm.us>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 6:= 33 AM
Subject: [LML] Re:= 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch

Again,

My Oil= dyne internal pressure switch came (set by Oildyne) at 1,500 PSI. How do I = know? I parked my plane on the ramp at Newport News, Va in the evening. The= temperature was 40=B0F. 3 days later, when I was going to take off. The te= mperature was 80=B0F. I looked at my pressure gauges. Both the up and down = were at 1,500 PSI. I had to crack a nut in a hydraulic line to release the = pressure. The gear would not go up or down, at this pressure. The emergency= dump valve would not release, at this pressure. The pump would not run at = all, at this pressure.

Now, I have Wolfgang's high pressure adapter in the = system. It runs the pump whenever the pressure is high on both the up and t= he down side.

There is no speculation here. Just the facts, mam.
=

--
Lorn H. 'Feathers' Olsen, MAA, ASMEL, ASES, Comm, Inst
Dyn= aComm, Corp., 248-345-0500, mailto:lorn@dynaco= mm.us
LNC2, FB90/92, O-320-D1F, 1,800 hrs, N31161, Y47, SE Michigan<= BR>

--
For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/li= sts/lml/List.html



=


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