X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:25:46 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-da05.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.147] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTP id 5049439 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:53:02 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.147; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-ma05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-ma05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.12]) by imr-da05.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p6CEqHFB018382 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:52:17 -0400 Received: from core-mtc005b.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mtc005.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.235.17]) by mtaomg-ma05.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id ABE57E000094 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:52:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <107c8.18b8d620.3b4db9a0@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [LML] Re: another Lancair X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_107c8.18b8d620.3b4db9a0_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 5004 X-AOL-IP: 24.15.17.119 X-Originating-IP: [24.15.17.119] x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:519014656:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d290c4e1c5fa01bb8 --part1_107c8.18b8d620.3b4db9a0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Randy, =20 Flying time is an incredibly inaccurate measure. Your situation is a =20 perfect example. If I wanted to build x-country time I would use the 150. = A 100=20 NM trip might take an hour in the 150, only 30 minutes in the 320 and =20 merely a 15 minute ballistic arc in a IV-P. The crash speed of the 320 is= =20 probably twice that of the 150. Hmmm, I could probably land the un-powere= d 150=20 on the flat roof of the Menard's Distribution Center - but I would need a= =20 bit more room for the 320. =20 There are many more opportunities for "Oops!" in a retractable gear high = =20 performance aircraft than in a slow, error forgiving trainer. Uh, the =20 Malibu had quite a kill rate (Doc killer) when operated by, uh, pilots whos= e =20 education and training focused on gall bladders, rectums, etc. rather than= =20 upset recovery, thunderstorm avoidance, yada, yada. =20 Grayhawk =20 =20 =20 In a message dated 7/12/2011 9:30:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time, =20 randylsnarr@yahoo.com writes: Interesting stats. One factor I did not see is the amount of flying each group does. I have a= =20 plane in each group and the certified model in my 2 plane fleet does=20 1/20th of the flying as my experimental model. Most owners do not have 2 p= lanes=20 however, I believe there are more flight hours per plane for experimentals= =20 that certifieds... That is a complete guess but I would like to see this comparrison based on= =20 flight hours... Thanks for sharing.. Randy Snarr N694RS 235/320 N4442U Cessna 150 in the hangar with dust on it... "Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if= =20 not utterly impossible" -Simon Newcomb, 1902 --- On Mon, 7/11/11, Sky2high@aol.com wrote: From: Sky2high@aol.com Subject: [LML] Re: another Lancair To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Monday, July 11, 2011, 7:44 AM Jeff, =20 I couldn't find anything useful either in a scan of news letters or under= =20 the button "safety". The Safety Wire article was too small to read and is= =20 missing page 3. How ridiculous that the EAA reserved safety info only for= =20 counselors. Oh well......... =20 I have attached Lee Metcalf's Lancair accident analyses thru 2005 and the= =20 copy of an article I had laying around that points out why one should be= =20 suspicious of "experimental" accident stats. Perhaps the community will f= ind=20 these interesting. =20 Scott =20 =20 In a message dated 7/10/2011 2:18:42 P.M. Central Daylight Time, =20 vtailjeff@aol.com writes: Scott, The summary and white paper is on the web site. lobo is now deeply=20 involved in other EAA and FAA aviation safety projects.=20 Best regards, Jeff Sent from my iPad On Jul 9, 2011, at 10:34 AM, _Sky2high@aol.com_=20 (mip://104aad58/mc/compose?to=3DSky2high@aol.com) wrote: Jeff, =20 Any analysis is of interest to all - especially those that can't make your= =20 session at OSH. Perhaps some summary at the LOBO site? =20 Scott Krueger =20 =20 In a message dated 7/8/2011 7:40:41 A.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 _vtailjeff@aol.com_ (mip://104aad58/mc/compose?to=3Dvtailjeff@aol.com) wr= ites: Mark, =20 Yes, LOBO tracks these matters. Have you ever been to Oshkosh Airventure?= =20 These accidents are discussed in detail there. Based on your comments abou= t=20 the engines you would be surprised. In many cases it was not the engine. =20 Jeff Edwards -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle <_msteitle@gmail.com_=20 (mip://104aad58/mc/compose?to=3Dmsteitle@gmail.com) > To: (mip://104aad58/mc/compose?to=3Dlml@lancaironline.net)=20 _lml@lancaironline.net_ (mip://104aad58/mc/compose?to=3Dlml@lancaironline.n= et)=20 Sent: Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:59 pm Subject: [LML] Re: another Lancair Steve, =20 I agree, the pilot community lost another great guy. Even if he was a=20 jerk, we still need to solve this riddle. Is LOBO following up on each of = these=20 crashes to learn what the experts determine to be the cause(s)? If not, = =20 we'll continue to be having these conversations until we eventually run ou= t=20 of pilots, or airplanes. Mark=20 On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Steve Colwell <=20 (mip://104aad58/mc/compose?to=3Dmcmess1919@yahoo.com) _mcmess1919@yahoo.com= _=20 (mip://104aad58/mc/compose?to=3Dmcmess1919@yahoo.com) > wrote: =20 =20 =20 I would sure would like to know why all of these "certified engines" are= =20 quitting on takeoff. =20 =20 =20 Mark S.=20 Maybe the engine driven fuel pump is failing. We are running low boost = =20 continuously in case the engine pump fails and to address fuel pressure=20 issues at altitude, hot fuel, vapor lock and other problems. =20 I understand the engine will not make full power on low boost (reduce=20 manifold pressure and settle for less power?) =20 Or, it might quit if high boost is on and the mixture is not adjusted. = =20 Since engine driven pump failure, heat and altitude all affect fuel=20 delivery, it would seem using the low boost continuously could solve or m= ake=20 these problems manageable. =20 Dr. Lyle Koen did our last two physicals. He was a very likeable guy who= =20 built one of the early IV=E2=80=99s and had over 1000 hours on it. We ta= lked to=20 him about joining LOBO and coming to the Branson Fly-In. =20 Given the more knowledgeable than usual witness account, could training=20 have changed this outcome? Steve Legacy IO550 =20 =3D -----Inline Attachment Follows----- -- For archives and unsub=20 _http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html_ (http://mail.lancair= online.net:81/lists/lml/List.html)=20 --part1_107c8.18b8d620.3b4db9a0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
Randy,
 
Flying time is an incredibly inaccurate measure. Your situation is a= =20 perfect example. If I wanted to build x-country time I would use the 150.&n= bsp;=20 A 100 NM trip might take an hour in the 150, only 30 minutes in the 320 and= =20 merely a 15 minute ballistic arc in a IV-P.  The crash speed of the=20 320 is probably twice that of the 150.  Hmmm, I could=20 probably land the un-powered 150 on the flat roof of the Menard's= =20 Distribution Center - but I would need a bit more room for the 320.
 
There are many more opportunities for "Oops!" in a retractable gear hi= gh=20 performance aircraft than in a slow, error forgiving trainer.  Uh= , the=20 Malibu had quite a kill rate (Doc killer) when operated by, uh, pilots whos= e=20 education and training focused on gall bladders, rectums, etc. rather than = upset=20 recovery, thunderstorm avoidance, yada, yada.
 
Grayhawk
 
 
In a message dated 7/12/2011 9:30:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 randylsnarr@yahoo.com writes:
=
Interesting stats.
One factor I did not see is th= e=20 amount of flying each group does. I have a plane in each group and = the=20 certified model in my 2 plane fleet does 1/20th of the flying as my= =20 experimental model. Most owners do not have 2 planes however, I bel= ieve=20 there are more flight hours per plane for experimentals that=20 certifieds...
That is a complete guess but I would like to see t= his=20 comparrison based on flight hours...
Thanks for sharing..
Ran= dy=20 Snarr

N694RS
235/320

N4442U Cessna 150 in the hang= ar=20 with dust on it...

"Fligh= t by=20 machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if not= =20 utterly impossible"
-Simon Newcomb, 1902

--- On Mon,=20 7/11/11, Sky2high@aol.com <Sky2high@aol.com> wrote= :

From:=20 Sky2high@aol.com <Sky2high@aol.com>
Subject: [LML] Re:= =20 another Lancair
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Monday, Jul= y 11,=20 2011, 7:44 AM

Jeff,
 
I couldn't find anything useful either in a scan of news let= ters=20 or under the button "safety".  The Safety Wire article was t= oo=20 small to read and is missing page 3.  How ridiculous that th= e EAA=20 reserved safety info only for counselors.  Oh=20 well.........
 
I have attached Lee Metcalf's Lancair accident analyses thru= 2005=20 and the copy of an article I had laying around that points out=20 why one should be suspicious of "experimental" accident= =20 stats.  Perhaps the community will find these interesting.
 
Scott
 
In a message dated 7/10/2011 2:18:42 P.M. Central Daylight T= ime,=20 vtailjeff@aol.com writes:
Scott,

The summary and white paper is on the web site. lobo is no= w=20 deeply involved in other EAA and FAA aviation safety=20 projects. 

Best regards,

Jeff

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 9, 2011, at 10:34 AM, Sky2high@ao= l.com=20 wrote:

Jeff,
 
Any analysis is of interest to all - especially those th= at=20 can't make your session at OSH.  Perhaps some summary at= the=20 LOBO site?
 
Scott Krueger
 
In a message dated 7/8/2011 7:40:41 A.M. Central Dayligh= t=20 Time, vtailjeff@aol.com=20 writes:
Mark,
 
Yes, LOBO tracks these matters. Have you ever been to= =20 Oshkosh Airventure? These accidents are discussed in detail= =20 there. Based on your comments about the engines you would b= e=20 surprised. In many cases it was not the engine.
 
Jeff Edwards



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.= net
Sent:=20 Thu, Jul 7, 2011 4:59 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: another=20 Lancair

Steve, =20

I agree, the pilot community lost another great guy.= =20  Even if he was a jerk, we still need to solve this ri= ddle.=20  Is LOBO following up on each of these crashes to lear= n=20 what the experts determine to be the cause(s)?  If not= ,=20 we'll continue to be having these conversations until we=20 eventually run out of pilots, or airplanes.

Mark 

On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at= 1:05=20 PM, Steve Colwell <mcmess1919@yahoo.co= m>=20 wrote:
 
<= /DIV>
I would sure would = like to=20 know why all of these "certified engines" are quitting on= =20 takeoff.  
 =
Mark=20 S. 
Maybe the engin= e=20 driven fuel pump is failing.  We are running low boo= st=20 continuously in case the engine pump fails and to address= fuel=20 pressure issues at altitude, hot fuel, vapor lock and oth= er=20 problems.  
I understand th= e=20 engine will not make full power on low boost (reduce mani= fold=20 pressure and settle for less power?) =20  
Or, it might qu= it if=20 high boost is on and the mixture is not adjusted. = =20  
Since engine dr= iven=20 pump failure, heat and altitude all affect fuel delivery,= it=20 would seem using the low boost continuously could solve o= r=20 make these problems manageable.=20  
Dr. Lyle Koen d= id our=20 last two physicals.  He was a very likeable guy who = built=20 one of the early IV=E2=80=99s and had over 1000 hours on = it.  We=20 talked to him about joining LOBO and coming to the Branso= n=20 Fly-In. 
Given the more= =20 knowledgeable than usual witness account, could training = have=20 changed this outcome?
Steve  Leg= acy=20 IO550
 
<= /DIV>

=3D
-----Inline=20 Attachment Follows-----

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