X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 07:37:09 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm1-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.94] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with SMTP id 4967267 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 04 May 2011 23:16:27 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.94; envelope-from=pbricker@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.96] by nm1.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2011 03:15:53 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.89] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2011 03:15:53 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1026.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2011 03:15:53 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 35509.91283.bm@omp1026.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 80576 invoked from network); 5 May 2011 03:15:52 -0000 Received: from [192.168.1.69] (pbricker@76.206.248.200 with login) by smtp103.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 04 May 2011 20:15:51 -0700 PDT X-Yahoo-SMTP: E_DOnNaswBA_C3UUkqdGieqw9axmS6GTFECYQXU- X-YMail-OSG: YmdqiTsVM1m0mv_LkbijROtAoYHs0iIyqKJfmPquspEHZDm 2vvzStVhpXgvYjloDlKADLaommPsNoFsdZ797W07uwzwsl_iOaB5ZSx1gA9Q Tk6ou9bw6Tyh1Ut8MYNjwAV9WpNkCTorJ0h6GfbYUF3jfy3Z6xYoDqQw40Jc 9lYB5sKdaWKQy1VL_kNJo3Tko8St9EZFVBeKxirxkfqxu1dMLyjM.5Fxhcrf vxxHZTocgWRG98gX.PTTic4BGpjXqo8q1IzNQ56KJJEB.eI2ACWGis2yly2y PC1348f_TPU1ryJBZLzAXLmTTFRA726TO.KWfB5qSasyze6.zHI4f1be6nEn GchuE3WyrVPTIS8RxRcYM_A-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.0.101115 X-Original-Date: Wed, 04 May 2011 20:15:47 -0700 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! From: Paul Bricker X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List X-Original-Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Unfortunately, the comment period expired 4/23/11. On 5/4/11 4:46 AM, "Tim Olson" wrote: >I don't want to try to take y'all into the weeds too far, >but this thread has been very enlightening and maddening >to think of, and this week I also saw this link (see link >below) regarding changes to passport applications they're >trying to push through. It's just amazing that we allow >our liberties to be infringed on in so many aspects, with >unreasonable levels of regulation. >I stuck a quote from the link under the link for you, >but it may be an interesting read, for those of you who >travel with your plane and use your passport occasionally. > >http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/state-dept-wants-to-make-it-harder-t >o-get-a-passport/ > >The U.S. Department of State is proposing a new Biographical >Questionnaire for some passport applicants: The proposed new Form >DS-5513 asks for all addresses since birth; lifetime employment history >including employers=B9 and supervisors names, addresses, and telephone >numbers; personal details of all siblings; mother=B9s address one year >prior to your birth; any =B3religious ceremony=B2 around the time of birth; >and a variety of other information. According to the proposed form, >=B3failure to provide the information requested may result in =8A the denial >of your U.S. passport application.=B2 > > >Tim > > >On 5/3/2011 6:53 AM, swaid rahn wrote: >> Hello All, >> Rick and Jeff, could you please fwd a copy of your letters and a copy >> of the CBP Guidelines. I would like to post them at our local airports >> around Savannah Ga. and make a presentation at our EAA Chapter meeting >> about our freedom encroachments. >> Thanks, >> Swaid >> >> On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Rick Titsworth >> > wrote: >> >> Jeff, etal >> >> A minor account, for additional background=8A >> >> Last summer (early August sometime shortly after Osh), I was >> questioned by two CBP officers upon landing at MCD (Mackinac Island, >> Michgan) on an otherwise routine non-stop solo local/domestic flight >> from my homebase, Y47 in the Detroit area in my C172. They wanted >> to see my ID, and ask a couple questions on where I was coming from, >> if I had been out the country, etc. They asked if I had the >> registration, but did not request that I pull it out of the plastic >> pocket on the side panel. It was not much of an event, and the >> questions were not very invasive. I did provide my ID and minimally >> cooperative answers, all while I continued to tie-down, post flight, >> and unload my bag. They were in casual plain cloths, but did show >> me their ID=B9s and were cordial. >> >> In speaking with my wife who was waiting for me at the small airport >> building, she indicated that they were waiting there before hand, >> but also did the same to another plane that landed before me while >> she was waiting =AD so they were apparently not focusing on any >> specific planes. Having overhead their conversation while she was >> waiting, they were up there for a few days doing =B3audits=B2 a couple >> hours a day, AND STAYING AT THE MACHINAC GRAND HOTEL (5 star >> $400-600 per night, 2 night min). http://www.grandhotel.com >> and enjoying the island. >> >> This is really a very unnecessary boondoggle=8A >> >> MCD is a small (vacation/tourist) island 3 miles off the Michgan >> shore only accessible by ferry/boat (or plane) and a fairly >> expensive place to stay. The airport is within the state park >> boundary, operated by the state, staffed by a park ranger who >> records all tail numbers, and has a landing fee (but no services, no >> fuel nor FBO). It is not a high volume airport (untowered), but can >> by relatively busy on nice weekends in the summer. Needless to say, >> this is probably the LAST place anyone would seek to bring a >> fugitive into the country or any other potential nefarious >> activity. There are tons of remote, unattended, and more easily >> accessible airports in northern Mich, were you could probably land >> (stop&go) from Canada, below radar coverage (since they can=B9t ever >> provide flight following, nor radar vectors, below ~4,500ft). FYI, >> there is even a bunch of Class G in the Mich Upper Peninsula also >> (not just out west) =AD so you can legally fly in IMC without an IFR >> flight plan and not talking to anyone - if you believe in the big >> sky theory (I didn=B9t say it was safe). >> >> Anyway the key point is, we don=B9t need to be paying for these hacks >> to vacation at the GRAND in Aug while on the dole under the context >> of CBP aviation audits! What a waste of our CBP funding/resources, >> especially when there=B9s a boarder that actually needs policing. >> >> Rick >> >> p.s. Afterwards, I decided if I ever got stopped (audited) again, I >> would politely have them right down their names, badge >> numbers/credentials and office contact info for me, after showing >> them my ID, but before considering answering additional questions. >> >> p.p.s I also plan on posting a copy of the CBP Guide to Law >> Enforcement=8A on the bulletin board of every airport I land at. That >> should get some grass-roots pilots stirred up out there. >> >> =20 >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *From:*Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net >> ] *On Behalf Of *vtailjeff@aol.com >> >> *Sent:* Saturday, April 23, 2011 12:24 PM >> *To:* lml@lancaironline.net >> *Subject:* [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! >> >> Guys & gals, >> >> We appreciate your help. This Constitutional problem with Customs >> and Border Patrol (CBP) and similar Federal agencies has been >> brewing for a while and will not go away overnight. American >> citizens are not the bad guys. GA pilots are not terrorists. You may >> recall the 12,500# Program that TSA wanted to extend to small >> aircraft two years ago. It was successfully fought by many in GA. >> But this win was a small one for us and we must be ever vigilant to >> protect our freedom to fly. >> >> As a retired military officer and flier, I can tell you that CBP has >> put together a large air force and intelligence network and is using >> it against law abiding U.S. citizens. They are even advertising this >> capability on their own website. Unfortunately, they appear to be >> beyond the reach of our elected officials. The fax that we managed >> to secure and post on this list shows us they view GA as a security >> problem. As mentioned on an earlier post--they are not interested in >> answering their bosses (us) questions regarding these intrusions on >> our personal liberties. I have spent many hours researching this >> issue and racked up numerous hours on the phone mustering support. >> This latest attack on GA and our personal liberties occurred at my >> home airport, involved a good friend of mine who now owns an >> airplane I built, and was conducted at my hangar. >> >> Where we stand today: I have met with our local law enforcement >> officials who have conducted these searches based on phone calls >> from CBP. They are not happy with CBP. CBP has wasted a considerable >> amount of their time and made them out to be the bad guys which they >> are not. It will probably be a long time before CBP calls our local >> police force. Make contact with your local police agencies and >> advise them of this nonsense --an ounce of prevention is worth a >> pound of cure. The LOBO Board has been reaching out to our friends >> and allies in GA. I have contacted Congressman Sam Graves' >> office---he is the chairman of the GA caucus in the House of >> Representatives. Contact you Congressman and Senator, as well. I >> have connected with Jim Campbell who has published the pilot's >> account in www.aeronews.net . Today, I >> have had dialogue with AOPA and their VP for Operations, Mr. Craig >> Spence who will be meeting with CBP next week about this issue. I >> will ask him to invite our VP-- Bob Pastusek, COL USAF (ret.) to >> attend. AOPA is now giving this issue their top priority. Please >> give AOPA and Mr. Spence your support and respect. If you have >> anything else to report post it here or send it to me directly at >> vtailjeff@aol.com . I would appreciate >> hearing from anyone else who has had this sort of treatment from our >> Federal employees-- remember ---they work for us. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Jeff Edwards >> >> President, >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kent > >> To: lml@lancaironline.net >> Sent: Fri, Apr 22, 2011 12:56 pm >> Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! >> >> i passed the copy to a friend and here is what he wrote back: >> >> I just called that number, 866-247-2878 . >> >> I was handed off to Tony Martinez who said he was an aviation >> enforcement specialist at the Air and Marine Operations Center in >> Riverside, >> Calif. >> >> Based on the beeping I heard on the line, I assume the telephone >> call was >> recorded. >> >> He wanted to know who I was and who I represented or was "with." >> >> I gave him my first and last name and said I'm simply a pilot in >> Florida. >> >> The Reader's Digest version of our conversation, taken from memory: >> >> I explained I had some questions about a document -- the one in >> question -- >> and read its title to him. >> >> He asked where I got the document. >> >> I said someone gave it to me. More importantly, I added, several of >> the six >> document requirements are almost certainly incorrect, mentioning #5 >> (pilot's >> logbook) and #6 (Form 337). I pointed out these aren't FAA >>requirements. >> >> He said Form 337s are paperwork for modifications to the aircraft >> and must >> be in the aircraft. >> >> I said I thought the only Form 337 that must be carried in the >> aircraft was >> one for the installation of extra fuel tanks. >> >> He said I should contact the FAA with my concerns. >> >> I said this is a Dept of Homeland Security guide, not an FAA >> document, so I >> didn't think the appropriate action was to contact the FAA. >> >> He said he was more concerned about where I got the document. >> >> I explained I was worried I'd be confronted by law-enforcement >> officers at >> an airport and would run into problems because I wasn't carrying all >> the >> documents listed in the guide. >> >> He said this was a "guide" and "they'll be talking to us." Further >> back-and-forth made me realize he meant the officers would be in >> real-time >> contact with Martinez's facility during such a confrontation. >> >> I said this might not be the case, and I mentioned the John and >> Martha King >> incident and one recently at a St. Louis airport, where the police >> thought >> the aircraft was carrying a federal fugitive when in fact it >> contained a >> lieutenant colonel in the Air Force Reserves who flew F22s. >> >> I asked who in the DHS I should contact to get the guide corrected. >> He said >> I could send my input to his facility. >> >> He again mentioned his concern about my having a copy of the doc. >> >> How do we push back against this? AOPA seems too distracted selling >> wine to >> act on our behalf. >> >> ---------------------------------- >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> *From:*vtailjeff@aol.com >> >> *To:*lml@lancaironline.net >> >> *Sent:*Thursday, April 21, 2011 10:10 PM >> >> *Subject:*[LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! >> >> Here is a copy of a fax CBP sent. See if you can find the >> mistakes! I am a bit surprised they believe they can detain you >> if you do not have your pilot logbook onboard. LOL!!!! >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bob Rickard > > >> To: lml@lancaironline.net >> Sent: Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:49 am >> Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! >> >> We were able to get a copy of the fax that was sent to the local >> police. The =B3Tip=B2 came from Customs and Border Patrol in CA. >> And the local Police chief was actually /apologetic /because he >> knew it was bogus. The tip itself is BS. They made it up. IF >> they had been watching me or investigating me they would have >> known my wife was with me and not some dude. That is the only >> part that is really a violation, they are making up an excuse to >> get the locals excited, and then seeing what they find. Another >> example was a guy accused of transporting computer chips that >> were stolen. I can imagine them making up stories over the >> coffee in the morning. >> >> How would the public react if any Fed agency routinely made up >> tips so the cops would come to your house and want to search? >> Imagine the news coverage. That is the same thing going on >> here. If they have something on you, then absolutely go for >> it. But they did not in the 3 cases we know about just at our >> local airport. >> >> The lesson you derived is correct though. Know your rights, and >> also know how you can help them do their job without violating >> your rights. That is the best thing you can do (if innocent) >> while saying the least amount possible. >> >> Bob R >> >> *From:*Lancair Mailing List [_mailto:lml@lancaironline.net_ >> ] *On Behalf Of *William Wilson >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:05 AM >> *To:* _lml@lancaironline.net_ >> >> *Subject:* [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! >> >> Seems pretty standard to me. They checked out a tip that proved >> to be bogus. I don't see any rights violations here or anything >> out of the ordinary. >> >> The main lesson IMO is that, while there are plenty of cops who >> abuse power, for the most part if you behave in a civilized >> manner and realize they are just trying to do their job, most of >> them will treat you fairly. That seems to be what happened >>here. >> >> On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Bob Rickard >> <_r.rickard@rcginc-us.com_ > >>wrote: >> >> Fellow LML=B9ers >> >> It seems inevitable that the govt will search you at some >> point. Just some info on what happened to me yesterday, you can >> hopefully use this to react appropriately for your situation. >> This is the third incident just at our little airport in >> Missouri of this happening=8A.. >> >> Bob Rickard >> >> IV-P >> >> On 18 April, 2011, I filed IFR from KGEU to K1H0 direct, with my >> wife on board. At 0845L, I departed KGEU VFR and picked up my >> filed IFR clearance to K1H0 at FL210 with ABQ center. The >> flight was uneventful and I cancelled IFR approximately 10 miles >> from K1H0 with St. Louis Approach and landed at 1443L. Upon >> landing and taxi to my hanger (P3) at Creve Coeur Airport, I was >> surrounded by 6 Maryland Heights Police cars and about 10 >> officers. I exited the plane and was approached by the >> supervisor and asked if I had any identification. I produced my >> military ID (I am a LtCol in the Air Force Reserve flying >> F-22=B9s) as well as my driver=B9s license, and asked the supervisor >> what the problem was. He told me that he got a =B3tip=B2 from the >> Federal Government that there may be a federal fugitive on board >> by the name of Robert Mcrae. He wasn=B9t sure of the name and >> asked me if I knew anyone by a name similar to that, to which I >> answered =B3no=B2 to all. He also stated that he was surprised to >> see a woman in the plane with me since his informant said there >> would be two men in the plane. I inquired as to who would give >> a tip like that, and he was vague. A this point my wife exited >> the plane and was asked to produce her ID as well and was >> questioned as to what we were doing and where we were going and >> where we came from. It was apparent to the supervisor pretty >> quickly that my wife and I were not federal fugitives as they >> ran our ID=B9s, but he asked to search the airplane anyway. I >> told him that I was aware of my rights and he could not search >> anything without a warrant, and he was quick to add =B3or your >> permission=B2 and =B3I could have the dogs come out=B2. (side note =AD >> they don=B9t need a warrant to have the dogs check out your >> aircraft =AD if the dogs find something and indicate, then they >> have probable cause to search you without a warrant. If the >> dogs find nothing they cannot search your aircraft until a >> warrant is issued). I told him that I would play nice, had >> nothing to hide, and that my plan was to take my belongings out >> of the airplane and put them in my car to go home, and I would >> allow him to see what I took out and visually see inside the >> cockpit and baggage compartment, but I was not allowing a search >> of the airplane. He agreed to this. I took my 2 pieces of >> luggage out of the back and showed him the contents briefly (not >> a complete search but opened up the zipper and showed clothes on >> top) as well as the couple of vases we had bought in Phoenix and >> lunch/sodas we had in the cockpit. They saw nothing of interest >> and returned my wife=B9s ID, but kept mine and made further >> calls. The supervisor indicated =B3I=B9m on overtime, I am outta >> here=B2 and left, but another officer checked with =B3EPIC=B2 (unsure >> of the spelling) which he told me was an international >> consortium that traded information on travel, etc. He told me >> he was aware of my trip earlier this year to Mexico and the >> Cayman Islands (honeymoon cruise) but there was nothing to get >> me in trouble. He then returned my ID and let us go. >> >> =20 >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> -- >> >> For archives and unsub >> _http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html_ >> >> =20 >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - _www.avg.com_ >> Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3587 - Release Date: >> 04/21/11 >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Swaid L. Rahn >> Indigo Aviation, Inc. >> 940 Mock Road >> Springfield, Ga. 31329 >> Cell 912.655.0966 >> >> > > >-- >For archives and unsub >http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html