X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:56:52 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from cgpro2.tulsaconnect.com ([65.38.1.5] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with ESMTP id 4954236 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:44:27 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.38.1.5; envelope-from=kent@tulsaconnect.com Received: from [65.38.9.183] (HELO main) by cgpro2.tulsaconnect.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.1) with SMTP id 53610127 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:43:51 -0500 X-Original-Message-ID: From: "Kent" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! X-Original-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:43:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C8_01CC00C9.677B92C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6090 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01CC00C9.677B92C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i passed the copy to a friend and here is what he wrote back: I just called that number, 866-247-2878. I was handed off to Tony Martinez who said he was an aviation=20 enforcement specialist at the Air and Marine Operations Center in = Riverside,=20 Calif. Based on the beeping I heard on the line, I assume the telephone call = was=20 recorded. He wanted to know who I was and who I represented or was "with." I gave him my first and last name and said I'm simply a pilot in = Florida. The Reader's Digest version of our conversation, taken from memory: I explained I had some questions about a document -- the one in question = -- =20 and read its title to him. He asked where I got the document. I said someone gave it to me. More importantly, I added, several of the = six=20 document requirements are almost certainly incorrect, mentioning #5 = (pilot's=20 logbook) and #6 (Form 337). I pointed out these aren't FAA requirements. He said Form 337s are paperwork for modifications to the aircraft and = must=20 be in the aircraft. I said I thought the only Form 337 that must be carried in the aircraft = was=20 one for the installation of extra fuel tanks. He said I should contact the FAA with my concerns. I said this is a Dept of Homeland Security guide, not an FAA document, = so I=20 didn't think the appropriate action was to contact the FAA. He said he was more concerned about where I got the document. I explained I was worried I'd be confronted by law-enforcement officers = at=20 an airport and would run into problems because I wasn't carrying all the = documents listed in the guide. He said this was a "guide" and "they'll be talking to us." Further=20 back-and-forth made me realize he meant the officers would be in = real-time=20 contact with Martinez's facility during such a confrontation. I said this might not be the case, and I mentioned the John and Martha = King=20 incident and one recently at a St. Louis airport, where the police = thought=20 the aircraft was carrying a federal fugitive when in fact it contained a = lieutenant colonel in the Air Force Reserves who flew F22s. I asked who in the DHS I should contact to get the guide corrected. He = said=20 I could send my input to his facility. He again mentioned his concern about my having a copy of the doc. How do we push back against this? AOPA seems too distracted selling wine = to=20 act on our behalf. ---------------------------------- ----- Original Message -----=20 From: vtailjeff@aol.com=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 10:10 PM Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! Here is a copy of a fax CBP sent. See if you can find the mistakes! I = am a bit surprised they believe they can detain you if you do not have = your pilot logbook onboard. LOL!!!! Jeff =20 -----Original Message----- From: Bob Rickard To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Wed, Apr 20, 2011 11:49 am Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! We were able to get a copy of the fax that was sent to the local = police. The =E2=80=9CTip=E2=80=9D came from Customs and Border Patrol = in CA. And the local Police chief was actually apologetic because he = knew it was bogus. The tip itself is BS. They made it up. IF they had = been watching me or investigating me they would have known my wife was = with me and not some dude. That is the only part that is really a = violation, they are making up an excuse to get the locals excited, and = then seeing what they find. Another example was a guy accused of = transporting computer chips that were stolen. I can imagine them making = up stories over the coffee in the morning. =20 How would the public react if any Fed agency routinely made up tips so = the cops would come to your house and want to search? Imagine the news = coverage. That is the same thing going on here. If they have something = on you, then absolutely go for it. But they did not in the 3 cases we = know about just at our local airport. The lesson you derived is correct though. Know your rights, and also = know how you can help them do their job without violating your rights. = That is the best thing you can do (if innocent) while saying the least = amount possible. Bob R From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = William Wilson Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:05 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched! Seems pretty standard to me. They checked out a tip that proved to be = bogus. I don't see any rights violations here or anything out of the = ordinary. The main lesson IMO is that, while there are plenty of cops who abuse = power, for the most part if you behave in a civilized manner and realize = they are just trying to do their job, most of them will treat you = fairly. That seems to be what happened here. On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Bob Rickard = wrote: Fellow LML=E2=80=99ers It seems inevitable that the govt will search you at some point. Just = some info on what happened to me yesterday, you can hopefully use this = to react appropriately for your situation. This is the third incident = just at our little airport in Missouri of this happening=E2=80=A6.. Bob Rickard IV-P On 18 April, 2011, I filed IFR from KGEU to K1H0 direct, with my wife = on board. At 0845L, I departed KGEU VFR and picked up my filed IFR = clearance to K1H0 at FL210 with ABQ center. The flight was uneventful = and I cancelled IFR approximately 10 miles from K1H0 with St. Louis = Approach and landed at 1443L. Upon landing and taxi to my hanger (P3) = at Creve Coeur Airport, I was surrounded by 6 Maryland Heights Police = cars and about 10 officers. I exited the plane and was approached by = the supervisor and asked if I had any identification. I produced my = military ID (I am a LtCol in the Air Force Reserve flying = F-22=E2=80=99s) as well as my driver=E2=80=99s license, and asked the = supervisor what the problem was. He told me that he got a = =E2=80=9Ctip=E2=80=9D from the Federal Government that there may be a = federal fugitive on board by the name of Robert Mcrae. He = wasn=E2=80=99t sure of the name and asked me if I knew anyone by a name = similar to that, to which I answered =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D to all. He = also stated that he was surprised to see a woman in the plane with me = since his informant said there would be two men in the plane. I = inquired as to who would give a tip like that, and he was vague. A this = point my wife exited the plane and was asked to produce her ID as well = and was questioned as to what we were doing and where we were going and = where we came from. It was apparent to the supervisor pretty quickly = that my wife and I were not federal fugitives as they ran our = ID=E2=80=99s, but he asked to search the airplane anyway. I told him = that I was aware of my rights and he could not search anything without a = warrant, and he was quick to add =E2=80=9Cor your permission=E2=80=9D = and =E2=80=9CI could have the dogs come out=E2=80=9D. (side note = =E2=80=93 they don=E2=80=99t need a warrant to have the dogs check out = your aircraft =E2=80=93 if the dogs find something and indicate, then = they have probable cause to search you without a warrant. If the dogs = find nothing they cannot search your aircraft until a warrant is = issued). I told him that I would play nice, had nothing to hide, and = that my plan was to take my belongings out of the airplane and put them = in my car to go home, and I would allow him to see what I took out and = visually see inside the cockpit and baggage compartment, but I was not = allowing a search of the airplane. He agreed to this. I took my 2 = pieces of luggage out of the back and showed him the contents briefly = (not a complete search but opened up the zipper and showed clothes on = top) as well as the couple of vases we had bought in Phoenix and = lunch/sodas we had in the cockpit. They saw nothing of interest and = returned my wife=E2=80=99s ID, but kept mine and made further calls. = The supervisor indicated =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m on overtime, I am outta = here=E2=80=9D and left, but another officer checked with = =E2=80=9CEPIC=E2=80=9D (unsure of the spelling) which he told me was an = international consortium that traded information on travel, etc. He = told me he was aware of my trip earlier this year to Mexico and the = Cayman Islands (honeymoon cruise) but there was nothing to get me in = trouble. He then returned my ID and let us go. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- -- For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3587 - Release Date: = 04/21/11 ------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01CC00C9.677B92C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
i passed the copy to a friend and here = is what he=20 wrote back:
I just called that number, 866-247-2878.

I was handed off to = Tony=20 Martinez <sp> who said he was an aviation
enforcement = specialist at=20 the Air and Marine Operations Center in Riverside, =
Calif.

Based on=20 the beeping I heard on the line, I assume the telephone call was=20
recorded.

He wanted to know who I was and who I represented = or was=20 "with."

I gave him my first and last name and said I'm simply a = pilot in=20 Florida.

The Reader's Digest version of our conversation, taken = from=20 memory:

I explained I had some questions about a document -- the = one in=20 question -- 
and read its title to him.

He asked where I = got the=20 document.

I said someone gave it to me. More importantly, I = added,=20 several of the six
document requirements are almost certainly = incorrect,=20 mentioning #5 (pilot's
logbook) and #6 (Form 337). I pointed out = these=20 aren't FAA requirements.

He said Form 337s are paperwork for=20 modifications to the aircraft and must
be in the aircraft.

I = said I=20 thought the only Form 337 that must be carried in the aircraft was =
one for=20 the installation of extra fuel tanks.

He said I should contact = the FAA=20 with my concerns.

I said this is a Dept of Homeland Security = guide, not=20 an FAA document, so I
didn't think the appropriate action was to = contact the=20 FAA.

He said he was more concerned about where I got the=20 document.

I explained I was worried I'd be confronted by = law-enforcement=20 officers at
an airport and would run into problems because I wasn't = carrying=20 all the
documents listed in the guide.

He said this was a = "guide" and=20 "they'll be talking to us." Further
back-and-forth made me realize = he meant=20 the officers would be in real-time
contact with Martinez's facility = during=20 such a confrontation.

I said this might not be the case, and I = mentioned=20 the John and Martha King
incident and one recently at a St. Louis = airport,=20 where the police thought
the aircraft was carrying a federal = fugitive when=20 in fact it contained a
lieutenant colonel in the Air Force Reserves = who flew=20 F22s.

I asked who in the DHS I should contact to get the guide = corrected.=20 He said
I could send my input to his facility.

He again = mentioned his=20 concern about my having a copy of the doc.

How do we push back = against=20 this? AOPA seems too distracted selling wine to
act on our=20 behalf.

----------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 vtailjeff@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 = 10:10=20 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you = may be=20 searched!

Here is a copy = of a fax=20 CBP sent. See if you can find the mistakes! I am a bit surprised they = believe=20 they can detain you if you do not have your pilot logbook onboard.=20 LOL!!!!
 
Jeff
 


 


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Bob Rickard <r.rickard@rcginc-us.com>To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: = Wed,=20 Apr 20, 2011 11:49 am
Subject: [LML] Re: beware, you may be=20 searched!

We were able to = get a copy=20 of the fax that was sent to the local police.  The = =E2=80=9CTip=E2=80=9D came from=20 Customs and Border Patrol in CA.  And the local Police chief was = actually=20 apologetic because he knew it was bogus.  The tip itself = is=20 BS.  They made it up.  IF they had been watching me or = investigating=20 me they would have known my wife was with me and not some dude.  = That is=20 the only part that is really a violation, they are making up an excuse = to get=20 the locals excited, and then seeing what they find.  Another = example was=20 a guy accused of transporting computer chips that were stolen.  I = can=20 imagine them making up stories over the coffee in the morning. =20
 
How would the = public react=20 if any Fed agency routinely made up tips so the cops would come to = your house=20 and want to search?  Imagine the news coverage.  That is the = same=20 thing going on here.  If they have something on you, then = absolutely go=20 for it.  But they did not in the 3 cases we know about just at = our local=20 airport.
 
The lesson you = derived is=20 correct though.  Know your rights, and also know how you can help = them do=20 their job without violating your rights.  That is the best thing = you can=20 do (if innocent) while saying the least amount possible.
 
Bob=20 R
 
From: Lancair = Mailing=20 List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] = On=20 Behalf Of William Wilson
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 = 7:05=20 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sub= ject:=20 [LML] Re: beware, you may be searched!
 
Seems pretty = standard to=20 me.  They checked out a tip that proved to be bogus.  I = don't see=20 any rights violations here or anything out of the ordinary.

The = main=20 lesson IMO is that, while there are plenty of cops who abuse power, = for the=20 most part if you behave in a civilized manner and realize they are = just trying=20 to do their job, most of them will treat you fairly.  That seems = to be=20 what happened here.
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Bob Rickard = <r.rickard@rcginc-us.com>=20 wrote:
Fellow LML=E2=80=99ers
 
It seems inevitable that the govt will search you at = some=20 point.  Just some info on what happened to me yesterday, you can=20 hopefully use this to react appropriately for your situation.  = This is=20 the third incident just at our little airport in Missouri of this=20 happening=E2=80=A6..
 
Bob Rickard
IV-P
 
On 18 April, 2011, I filed IFR from KGEU to K1H0 = direct, with=20 my wife on board.  At 0845L, I departed KGEU VFR and picked up my = filed=20 IFR clearance to K1H0 at FL210 with ABQ center.  The flight was=20 uneventful and I cancelled IFR approximately 10 miles from K1H0 with = St. Louis=20 Approach and landed at 1443L.  Upon landing and taxi to my hanger = (P3) at=20 Creve Coeur Airport, I was surrounded by 6 Maryland Heights Police = cars and=20 about 10 officers.  I exited the plane and was approached by the=20 supervisor and asked if I had any identification.  I produced my = military=20 ID (I am a LtCol in the Air Force Reserve flying F-22=E2=80=99s) as = well as my=20 driver=E2=80=99s license, and asked the supervisor what the problem = was.  He told=20 me that he got a =E2=80=9Ctip=E2=80=9D from the Federal Government = that there may be a federal=20 fugitive on board by the name of Robert Mcrae.  He wasn=E2=80=99t = sure of the=20 name and asked me if I knew anyone by a name similar to that, to which = I=20 answered =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D to all.  He also stated that he was = surprised to see a=20 woman in the plane with me since his informant said there would be two = men in=20 the plane.  I inquired as to who would give a tip like that, and = he was=20 vague.  A this point my wife exited the plane and was asked to = produce=20 her ID as well and was questioned as to what we were doing and where = we were=20 going and where we came from.   It was apparent to the = supervisor=20 pretty quickly that my wife and I were not federal fugitives as they = ran our=20 ID=E2=80=99s, but he asked to search the airplane anyway.  I told = him that I was=20 aware of my rights and he could not search anything without a warrant, = and he=20 was quick to add =E2=80=9Cor your permission=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CI = could have the dogs come=20 out=E2=80=9D.  (side note =E2=80=93 they don=E2=80=99t need a = warrant to have the dogs check out=20 your aircraft =E2=80=93 if the dogs find something and indicate, then = they have=20 probable cause to search you without a warrant.  If the dogs find = nothing=20 they cannot search your aircraft until a warrant is issued).  I = told him=20 that I would play nice, had nothing to hide, and that my plan was to = take my=20 belongings out of the airplane and put them in my car to go home, and = I would=20 allow him to see what I took out and visually see inside the cockpit = and=20 baggage compartment, but I was not allowing a search of the = airplane.  He=20 agreed to this. I took my 2 pieces of luggage out of the back and = showed him=20 the contents briefly (not a complete search but opened up the zipper = and=20 showed clothes on top) as well as the couple of vases we had bought in = Phoenix=20 and lunch/sodas we had in the cockpit.  They saw nothing of = interest and=20 returned my wife=E2=80=99s ID, but kept mine and made further = calls.  The=20 supervisor indicated =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m on overtime, I am outta = here=E2=80=9D and left, but another=20 officer checked with =E2=80=9CEPIC=E2=80=9D (unsure of the spelling) = which he told me was an=20 international consortium that traded information on travel, etc.  = He told=20 me he was aware of my trip earlier this year to Mexico and the Cayman = Islands=20 (honeymoon cruise) but there was nothing to get me in trouble.  = He then=20 returned my ID and let us go.
 
 


--
For archives and unsub=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html


No virus found in = this=20 message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1209 / = Virus=20 Database: 1500/3587 - Release Date: = 04/21/11

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